# Guys and creepiness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 1, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716 "2013-03-01T12:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/621 "2013-03-19T11:49:39Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Mm, never said I was the font of all knowledge. > > But I’m not going to waste any more time on a thread about men being creepy talking to a man who’s claiming to know more about domestic violence on women\* than female victims themselves. > \*Just FTR, this is because it was only female victims Doggo was addressing. Perhaps you didn’t say it, but it comes across that way. Any woman that continues to live with a man that hits her is a victim, and will continue to be untill she moves out. Either do something about it or continue to be assaulted- can’t have it both ways. BTW, I was a victim of abuse in a long term relationship. The only reason I didn’t realise it at the time was that it was mental, rather than physical. When I did understand what was happening, I moved out, even though at 35 I lost everything, and had to start again from scratch. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/622 "2013-03-19T20:49:49Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Perhaps you didn’t say it, but it comes across that way. Not remotely true. If that’s what you’re getting, that’s on you, not on **SFS**. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/623 "2013-03-20T06:41:17Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Perhaps you didn’t say it, but it comes across that way. > > Any woman that continues to live with a man that hits her is a victim, and will continue to be untill she moves out. Either do something about it or continue to be assaulted- can’t have it both ways. > > BTW, I was a victim of abuse in a long term relationship. The only reason I didn’t realise it at the time was that it was mental, rather than physical. When I did understand what was happening, I moved out, even though at 35 I lost everything, and had to start again from scratch. Actually in most violent relationships both parties are violent and initiate violence. Who’s the perpetual victim there? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/624 "2013-03-20T06:43:19Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Actually in most violent relationships both parties are violent and initiate violence. Who’s the perpetual victim there? Both? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/625 "2013-03-20T16:23:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Both? Absolutely. Had the victim just stayed in the kitchen, they would have never gotten put in their place. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/626 "2013-03-20T16:37:53Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > I doubt that the abusive partner waits till after children arrive to become violent, so yes, leave at the first instance of violence. It won’t stop, and you can’t change someone’s fundamental character, no matter how much you think you can. > If the violence is a “surprise”, it’s probably because they didn’t wait long enough to really get to know each other before moving in together and having children. So, it’s more important to you that you think you’re right than that victims of abuse get help. Okay. Just so we’re clear on that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/627 "2013-03-20T16:55:27Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Actually in most violent relationships both parties are violent and initiate violence. Who’s the perpetual victim there? The truth, clearly. First, I’d like a cite for this remarkable clai. Second, the implication of the claim is that there’s some sort of parity between the two parties if one of them regularly slaps the other and the other one regularly beats the living daylights out of the first. Obviously the level of violence is important. But I don’t even accept the first part of your claim. Rather it sounds like the end result of a game of misogynist telephone. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/628 "2013-03-20T20:12:05Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Both > > Absolutely. Had the victim just stayed in the kitchen, they would have never gotten put in their place. …that’s quite the non sequitur. “Bob is stabbed by his wife, who broke his arm with a hammer, which wouldn’t have happened if they hadn’t come out of the kitchen”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/629 "2013-03-21T01:09:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > …that’s quite the non sequitur. “Bob is stabbed by his wife, who broke his arm with a hammer, which wouldn’t have happened if they hadn’t come out of the kitchen”? It helps the mocker if the mockee is able to understand why he’s being mocked, so lemme break it down: the claim that the victim of domestic violence is “in most violent relationships” equally culpable appears to be an absurd claim, so when you’re treating it as valid, you’re going to be mocked. There. Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/630 "2013-03-21T08:24:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It helps the mocker if the mockee is able to understand why he’s being mocked, so lemme break it down: the claim that the victim of domestic violence is “in most violent relationships” equally culpable appears to be an absurd claim, so when you’re treating it as valid, you’re going to be mocked. > > There. Hope that helps. I’m not sure you actually understood my post, the whole point was that the notion of a victim is, in most cases of domestic violence, misguided. Sometimes there’s a victim, ut the claim being made was that once you’ve been hit you’re a victim and will stay one until you leave, which is not the case. The most likely scenario is that you are also violent, although there are other scenarios whereby a repeat of the violence is unlikely, too. Only you have imagined a situation where there is a cowering victim being horribly beaten and now being blamed for it. The fact, which I was representing, is that in most violent relationships there is no victim, only an exchange of blows, which can be a one-off, or rare, or frequent, and can be very violent or rather minor. The doctrinaire “patriarchal terrorism” model favoured by several in this thread is horribly outdated, sexist and discredited. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/631 "2013-03-21T08:35:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The truth, clearly. > > First, I’d like a cite for this remarkable clai. > **[Domestic violence is most commonly reciprocal | The Psychiatrist | Cambridge...](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-psychiatrist/article/domestic-violence-is-most-commonly-reciprocal/C5432B0C6F8F61B49A4E2B60B931FA07)** > > Domestic violence is most commonly reciprocal - Volume 35 Issue 1 Hardly a remarkable claim, it’s the result of many years of studies being done, and other than feminists whoo refuse to see the facts it is universally accepted. > [@](#): > > Second, the implication of the claim is that there’s some sort of parity between the two parties if one of them regularly slaps the other and the other one regularly beats the living daylights out of the first. Obviously the level of violence is important. Which is why studies have included the level of violence for many years, and the number of injuries sustained, and the severity of injuries sustained, and who actually initiated the violence by striking first, and whether weapons were used, and suchlike. And it’s always found that in abbout half of all violent relationships both parties use violence in a symetrical manner, and cases of self-defence are excluded from the figure. Acts of violence are also categorised into severe and not-severe, and again symmetry arises. Again, see the link above. > [@](#): > > But I don’t even accept the first part of your claim. Rather it sounds like the end result of a game of misogynist telephone. Women are a significant majority of those perpetrating violence in relationships where only one partner is violent. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/632 "2013-03-21T09:28:01Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > [Domestic violence is most commonly reciprocal | The Psychiatrist | Cambridge Core](http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/35/1/33.1.full) > > Hardly a remarkable claim, it’s the result of many years of studies being done, and other than feminists whoo refuse to see the facts it is universally accepted. > > Which is why studies have included the level of violence for many years, and the number of injuries sustained, and the severity of injuries sustained, and who actually initiated the violence by striking first, and whether weapons were used, and suchlike. > > And it’s always found that in abbout half of all violent relationships both parties use violence in a symetrical manner, and cases of self-defence are excluded from the figure. Acts of violence are also categorised into severe and not-severe, and again symmetry arises. > > Again, see the link above. > > Women are a significant majority of those perpetrating violence in relationships where only one partner is violent. Did you mean significant majority? I’m very surprised about that study. Though I suppose it sort of holds true for really low-level violence - throwing plates (not aiming to hit the partner), shoving etc. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/633 "2013-03-21T09:29:43Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > [Domestic violence is most commonly reciprocal | The Psychiatrist | Cambridge Core](http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/35/1/33.1.full) > > Hardly a remarkable claim, it’s the result of many years of studies being done, and other than feminists whoo refuse to see the facts it is universally accepted. > > Which is why studies have included the level of violence for many years, and the number of injuries sustained, and the severity of injuries sustained, and who actually initiated the violence by striking first, and whether weapons were used, and suchlike. > > And it’s always found that in abbout half of all violent relationships both parties use violence in a symetrical manner, and cases of self-defence are excluded from the figure. Acts of violence are also categorised into severe and not-severe, and again symmetry arises. > > Again, see the link above. > > Women are a significant majority of those perpetrating violence in relationships where only one partner is violent. Did you mean significant minority? I guess mutual violence might well be common for low-level violence - throwing plates not intended to hit the partner, shoving etc. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/634 "2013-03-21T11:07:46Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > [Domestic violence is most commonly reciprocal | The Psychiatrist | Cambridge Core](http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/35/1/33.1.full) > > Hardly a remarkable claim, it’s the result of many years of studies being done, and other than feminists whoo refuse to see the facts it is universally accepted. > > Which is why studies have included the level of violence for many years, and the number of injuries sustained, and the severity of injuries sustained, and who actually initiated the violence by striking first, and whether weapons were used, and suchlike. > > And it’s always found that in abbout half of all violent relationships both parties use violence in a symetrical manner, and cases of self-defence are excluded from the figure. Acts of violence are also categorised into severe and not-severe, and again symmetry arises. > > Again, see the link above. First, fair enough, this study surprises me. However, I’m seeing the opposite of your claim that symmetry arises, when I go to [the actual study cited](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17395835?dopt=Abstract&report=abstract), and not the bit of correspondence you quoted: > [@](#): > > Regarding injury, men were more likely to inflict injury than were women. Your claim that “Actually in most violent relationships both parties are violent and initiate violence” also appears to be nonsense, unless by “most” you mean “slightly less than half.” Still, though, I plan to look into these claims more. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/635 "2013-03-21T12:41:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > First, fair enough, this study surprises me. > > However, I’m seeing the opposite of your claim that symmetry arises, when I go to [the actual study cited](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17395835?dopt=Abstract&report=abstract), and not the bit of correspondence you quoted: > > Your claim that “Actually in most violent relationships both parties are violent and initiate violence” also appears to be nonsense, unless by “most” you mean “slightly less than half.” > > Still, though, I plan to look into these claims more. Quoting more extensively from ther same part: > [@](#): > > I **n 70% of the non-reciprocally violent relationships women were the perpetrators of violence.** Reciprocal violence appears to be particularly dangerous, leading to the highest rate of injury (31.4%). This may be because reciprocal violence is more likely to escalate. > > The International Dating Violence Study3 found that among students at 31 universities worldwide male and female students had similar rates of physically assaulting a partner (25% of men and 28% of women at the median university). **There was parity for perpetrating severe assaults (used a knife or gun, punched or hit partner with something that could hurt, choked partner, slammed partner against a wall, beat up partner, burned or scalded partner on purpose, kicked partner) - 9% of male and female students at the median university. For** severe injury (passed out, required medical attention or broke a bone) the perpetration rate was higher for males (median rate 3.1% by men and 1.2% by women). Emphasis added. It’s certainly true that women are both more likely to use weapons, as well as just as likely to use “severe” violence, and more likely to suffer injury. Women tend, on average, to be significantly smaller than their intimate partners, to have thinner bones, less muscle mass, less strength and so on, and are also more likely to seek medical attention for injuries (which is one of the criteria for “severe injury”). In spousal homicide cases, though, women are about 40% of defendants. Also from here: > **[Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between...](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1854883/)** > > Objectives. We sought to examine the prevalence of reciprocal (i.e., perpetrated by both partners) and nonreciprocal intimate partner violence and to determine whether reciprocity is related to violence frequency and injury. Methods. We analyzed ... > [@](#): > > Reciprocal partner violence does not appear to be only comprised of self-defensive acts of violence. Several studies have found that men and women initiate violence against an intimate partner at approximately the same rate. For example, Gray and Foshee11 specifically asked adolescents about their initiation of violence and found that among the violent relationships studied, 66% were characterized by both partners initiating violence at least once. In the National Family Violence Survey, both men and women reported that violence was initiated by each partner at least 40% of the time.10 Additionally, studies of community samples found that a relatively low percentage of women endorsed self-defense as a primary motive for violence.13,14 These data suggest that self-defense cannot fully explain the reciprocal violence phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/636 "2013-03-21T12:46:14Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Did you mean significant majority? > > I’m very surprised about that study. Though I suppose it sort of holds true for really low-level violence - throwing plates (not aiming to hit the partner), shoving etc. Quite the opposite, women [are more likely to](http://www.biomedsearch.com/article/Female-intimate-partner-violence-developmental/165430147.html) solely and unprovokedly use severe violence: > [@](#): > > Research data contradicting the feminist view of intimate partner violence (IPV)–exclusively male perpetrators and female victims–have been available since 1980. Stets and Straus (1992) reported data from the 1985 United States National Survey on the incidence of abuse showing that 45 percent of abuse reports were bilateral (corrected for level of severity) and, of the rest, women were three times as likely as males to use severe violence against a non-violent or minimally violent partner. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/637 "2013-03-21T13:15:43Z")
I don’t think it’s that surprising that more women than men are violent to their partners, as it’s less socially unacceptable for a woman to hit a man (or for that matter another woman) than a man to hit a woman. This is another situation where _actual_ equality is necessary - that is, both victims and perpetrators are treated the same way regardless of gender, and regardless of the proportion of attacks based on gender. ETA I will note that all those studies focussed on violent assault, not sexual assault, within partnerships. I suspect if they were included the proportions would be very different. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/638 "2013-03-22T03:05:54Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > So, it’s more important to you that you think you’re right than that victims of abuse get help. > > Okay. > > Just so we’re clear on that. BS! What is more important is that victims ( of either gender ) realise that a violent partner is not going to change, and get out of the relationship BEFORE having children to inflict pain and suffering on. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/639 "2013-03-22T16:18:26Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > BS! > What is more important is that victims ( of either gender ) realise that a violent partner is not going to change, and get out of the relationship BEFORE having children to inflict pain and suffering on. Bullshit right back at you. The dynamics of abusive relationships are well understood at this point, and victims simply do not leave the nanosecond violence begins, and yes, children are born into violent relationships. You seem to believe that if we abandon victims of abuse because they don’t leave the very instant you think they ought to, they will be shamed into doing so, and that if they don’t leave, they deserve what happens to them. You are disconnected from reality, because you prefer your self-righteous satisfaction over the safety and health of other human beings. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716/640 "2013-03-22T16:21:02Z")
Somebody could do a good grad paper deconstructing this thread. Just sayin’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-and-creepiness/651716.md?page=33)