Guys and creepiness

[Chilliwack]

I respect the fact that the woman in the scenario at hand was aware that a nearly empty parking garage at night is a potential risk to personal security, and that an elevator with an unknown male is an even greater potential risk.

I take issue with her tactical decision making abilities. Waiting for the next elevator, or taking the stairs would have been a much better option - it would’ve saved the SDMB 300+ posts. Boarding the elevator, and entering a weapon into the equation was a very poor decision for a number of reasons outlined upthread.

As a male who’s large enough in stature to go where I want, when I want, with very little fear of random violence, I still do not board elevators in apartment buildings in the bad parts of town if there is anyone else in it, and get off as soon as someone else gets on, because I am aware that this is a common location for armed robbery.

The comparisson between a small can of OC spray and a handgun has been unsuccesfully made, so allow me, if you will, another parallel.

What if she had drawn a taser (the projectile one the police use)? Not pointed it at the man, but made it very clear, that he was a split second away from a potential incapacitation? Would this have been “situational awareness”?

Perhaps what I’m getting at, is that I resent being made aware of the fact that someone is prepared to use a weapon against me when I know there is no reason to. When a police officer is speaking to me and rests his hand on or near his gun, it adds tension to the situation that need not be there. Officers in my area are trained to hold their belt buckle to keep their hands near their guns in a non-threatening manner, much like the woman on the elevator should’ve kept the OC spray in hand in her pocket. I don’t feel threatened by a hand on a belt buckle, but a hand on a gun sends a message.

[SirGalahad]

@Incubus

I would argue child molestation is also about power, since children most likely to be molested have their abuser in a position of power over them (Priest, Scoutmaster, parent, cousin, uncle, teacher, etc). It were solely about gratification, I would figure random molestation/fondlings would be much more common, but statistics suggest children are molested by people close to them, and the children most likely to be molested are those with the least power (poor, stepchild, foster child, disabled).

All I’m seeing there is that these children are the easiest target of opportunity, not that the molesters want to exert dominance. Adults are naturally dominant over children all the time, it’s no indication of anything else.

[scratch_llll]

@SirGalahad

I’ve never heard that about child molestation … it seems to be clearly a matter of pathological sexuality. Are going to draw a distinction between men being potential flashers, peeping Toms and pedophiles, and men as suspected stalkers and rapists? If you roll all these charming possibilities into one thread, it’s not about creepiness anymore, it’s about barbarism.

I can’t see a mother being afraid that every solo man she sees is a pedophile. I know it happens … I’ve seen it. In a case like that, it’s her problem, she needs some kind of counseling. But, in the case of a woman with a history of being a victim, or having been close to a victim, of assault, especially sexual assault, I absolutely understand that she’ll be extra alert, and seemingly overreactive. It’s a reasonable response for a woman with that history.

Just to give you an out, you surely did not mean pedophiles aren’t rapists right? Because if you did it’s like saying children can consent and are just asking for it. There is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between an adult rapist and a child rapist except when it is done to children it is more heinous because of the added power and mental disparity perpetrated on someone even MORE innocent.

I included the second paragraph in the quote because I wanted to say that if you don’t understand that a woman who was molested as a child would be extra alert for children then you are undergoing some kind of stroke or lapse of judgement of some kind. It is fully just as reasonable as the extra alertness of a rape victim and even more commendable because it is not SELF vigilence but for the protection of the MORE vulnerable. Get it now?

And don’t ever lump pedophiles in with the more innocuous flashers and peeping toms. That verges on telltale. They are rapists of the worst kind when they act on it.

[SirGalahad]

@scratch_llll

Just to give you an out, you surely did not mean pedophiles aren’t rapists right? Because if you did it’s like saying children can consent and are just asking for it. There is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between an adult rapist and a child rapist except when it is done to children it is more heinous because of the added power and mental disparity perpetrated on someone even MORE innocent.

I included the second paragraph in the quote because I wanted to say that if you don’t understand that a woman who was molested as a child would be extra alert for children then you are undergoing some kind of stroke or lapse of judgement of some kind. It is fully just as reasonable as the extra alertness of a rape victim and even more commendable because it is not SELF vigilence but for the protection of the MORE vulnerable. Get it now?

And don’t ever lump pedophiles in with the more innocuous flashers and peeping toms. That verges on telltale. They are rapists of the worst kind when they act on it.

I don’t think I need an out, thanks. Pedophiles like kids, and presumably when anyone uses the word “rapist” in a sentence, the implication, unless some mention is made of age, is that the adult rapist is raping another adult.

I don’t think I’m the one having a stroke here, and unless we’re mistakenly in the BBQ Pit, don’t insult me anymore, thanks. If someone is so traumatized they see every man as a pedophile, they aren’t being alert, they are being paranoid. All men do not share the blame for a few bad men. Get it now?

I don’t think flashers and peeping Tom’s are innocuous, I gather they could be working their way up to God-knows-what … I sure wouldn’t risk that they weren’t full blown perverts. I’ll lump them wherever I like, thanks again. I don’t know what you mean by telltale … telltale of what?

Adult women rape and/or molestation victims have every right to prepare to defend themselves … women who scoop up children from the ground at the sight of a male in the vicinity, they just need to talk to a qualified professional.

[scratch_llll]

You never mentioned women who scoop up children in your first post. You can’t see a mother being afraid that every man she sees is a pedophile you said. I can. A potential one. Particularly if she was molested as a child. That is enough to make anyone hyper sensitive.

[TokyoBayer]

@Steophan

Surveys that include unreported rapes suggest that about 2% of rapes are by strangers. If you want cites, go to Wikipedia and follow the links. It seems like every few months people post a load of bullshit about sexual assault, and I’m one of the few people who actually look at the figures. I hate doing it, it makes me feel sick, mainly because of the realisation of how many people are abusing their partners, friends, and children in their care. Hardly any of them, though, are attacking strangers.

Here a link to one such survey.

In short, a survey of 272 women in the Detroit area who were the victims of forced sexual assault, which included the use of alcohol. This survey found that only 2% of the cases were by strangers.

Japan also has a very high level of date rapes, perhaps even higher than in the States. Many young women report that their initial sexual experience was a date rape. This is very sad, and something which I will have to be very conscious of when my daughter gets older. I don’t know how Taiwan compares.

Unfortunately, the old image of rape as occurring in parking lots and such is dated. The wiki article says that only 2.2% of cases are outdoors.

While any amount of crime is terrible and the suffering for all victims are real, I believe that we are not doing anyone any favors by focusing on situations which are significantly less frequent.

This is not to say that women should never be concerned. That would be absurd and foolish. One should always have situational awareness. One should never be as casual with large amounts of cash in the back alleys of a developing country as when counting it in the safety of one’s home. One also needs to understand, though that not everyone who is interested in separating you and your cash are as obvious as a masked gunman, and one needs to take reasonable and prudent precautions.

This isn’t an easy question. People need to be careful. There are real dangers. However, it does seem that many of the numbers being quoted in this thread are unrealistic.

In one of the best books written about this sort of thing, The Gift of FearGavin de Becker talks about this very elevator example. Just going by memory of the book, de Becker, an famous expert on security, wrote about one time he got on an elevator and a woman who had already been on the elevator reacted with noticeable fear. Grabbed her keys defensively, or something.

De Becker made the point is that the woman did not have a good sense of the situation. He had gotten on the elevator on a different floor then her, and had already pushed the button for getting off on a different floor than her.

[Leo_Bloom]

Una, do you think you can use that experience to stay collected in the next (hopefully not) situation?

I recently had a guy thing chest to chest back off (somebody grabbed me hard and stopped me and struck my Service Dog). Within a flash I checked his stance, distance from my legs or knee to his crotch, where is hands were, the distance to his chin, and his alertness. I checked my stance, and springiness, and loosened my arms but maintained an awareness of their balance.

All in a millisecond, practically. Never before in my life, and Ive been in a few situations (usually more than one versus me). The engagement passed (I’ll skip details).

It was inside a market, and when I got to the street my heart started beating like a frightened hamster. I was upset for about two days.

The reason–I am by no means saying this was a good one (I’ve been a Zen and art of Samurai from way back, and like you, I think, was a fencer (I think you are one, but anyway)–was anger. An anger I’ve never felt in my life, and that upset me the most in aftermath. My anger always rises quite high when I am with my dog and someone makes life hard with aggression towards him. Much, much more than any made towards me.

A not so good preparation for violence.

[Nzinga_Seated]

@TokyoBayer

In one of the best books written about this sort of thing, The Gift of FearGavin de Becker talks about this very elevator example. Just going by memory of the book, de Becker, an famous expert on security, wrote about one time he got on an elevator and a woman who had already been on the elevator reacted with noticeable fear. Grabbed her keys defensively, or something.

De Becker made the point is that the woman did not have a good sense of the situation. He had gotten on the elevator on a different floor then her, and had already pushed the button for getting off on a different floor than her.

Right. There is a difference between healthy fear and panic. I know I had to make a conscious decision to not let panic set in after the incident with the guy forcing my mom’s door open. I still go on walks, I am careful, but I believe the fear is MY issue to manage, and I have to be realistic that every man I see out at night isn’t going to try to hurt me. Otherwise, I would just be always freaking out and pulling my knife out.

I see why women may want to pull the mace out, but I still think it is better for her if she gets a grip and keep the pepper spray in her pocket, at the ready, though, if she feels she needs it.

I feel fear with my daughter all the time. But I taught her how to be aware and keep herself safe, and then I allow her to go off on her own, exploring the city, taking long walks, having time to be on her own. I personally walked her around this city and showed her how to handle herself, and I have been allowing her freedom to go on her own since she was 9. I kept in mind the stats and I kept in mind how smart and cool headed she is. If I were the type to panic and pull out a can of mace when a man gets in the elevator with me, having showed no sign of being a danger, then I would be too much of a nervous wreck to allow my daughter to develop normally.

I’m saying that a healthy fear is good, panic is no good, it sounds like the woman in the story may have been panicking a bit. I understand we don’t know her back story, so I’m not judging her.

[Doggo]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

The only data I can find shows that men are a greater percentage of teachers than they were 10 years ago.

Perhaps so, but I’m referring to a long past age when I was young and I only ever had one female teacher in the whole of my schooldays.
PC has been around a lot longer than 10 years.

[Doggo]

@Disposable Hero

And if you’d asked a room of men had they ever been the victim of a serious physical assault I’m sure you’d get a similar response. I certainly have.

Situational awareness and being careful isn’t the same as living in fear and is something both genders need to be aware of.

That is certainly true. I have always been defensive when alone because men may attack me for any of a variety of reasons, even just looking at them.
However, women have once again claimed that they are more likely to be victims of men than men- not so. It’s all to do with the anti male agenda being promulgated in the media- all men bad.
I don’t fear women physically, but have a healthy mistrust of them potentially causing me a problem, so give unknown women a wide berth. I don’t even look at them, just in case.

[Troppus]

@Doggo

However, women have once again claimed that they are more likely to be victims of men than men- not so. It’s all to do with the anti male agenda being promulgated in the media- all men bad.

We can count on Der Trihs to trot out the man-on-man violence stat at every opportunity, so we’re pretty clear that men have reason to be wary of men, too. Women in this thread have claimed that we are more vulnerable, generally weaker, and more likely to come to greater physical harm if attacked by a man. The “media” and law enforcement gives the elderly and kids self-defense and safety tips as often as target a female audience. If you or any other consumer feels that safety tips are biased against men, it’s because stats bear out that men are the most common aggressors.

[SciFiSam]

The woman in the lift sounds like she was overreacting, but claiming you could get her arrested is also overreacting. And while she might have an excuse - she’d recently been attacked, say - I don’t see much excuse for still being angry at her 23 years later.

I cross the road to avoid anybody late at night, male or female. It’s not like gender is always obvious then anyway.

However, there was one time when I was walking down a street in broad daylight and shied away from a bloke who came up to ask me directions. He assumed it was because he was a black man, but really it was that I’d been physically assaulted - by a woman - on the same street the day before, and my fear response kicked in before my brain did. Sadly, he probably, quite reasonably, lumps me in with the type of people who follow him round shops because he’s black and therefore a shoplifter.

@Doggo

That is certainly true. I have always been defensive when alone because men may attack me for any of a variety of reasons, even just looking at them.
However, women have once again claimed that they are more likely to be victims of men than men- not so. It’s all to do with the anti male agenda being promulgated in the media- all men bad.
I don’t fear women physically, but have a healthy mistrust of them potentially causing me a problem, so give unknown women a wide berth. I don’t even look at them, just in case.

Have they? I thought the claim was that men were more likely to be the attackers. Also that women are more likely to be sexually assaulted than men.

[Der_Trihs]

@Troppus

If you or any other consumer feels that safety tips are biased against men, it’s because stats bear out that men are the most common aggressors.

“Men” are not. Some men are. You are using the same logic used to profile blacks as criminals and Muslims as terrorists, a practice which is both bigoted and counterproductive. Looking at half the human race with fear and hatred isn’t going to make you safer, just as racial and religious profiling doesn’t catch criminals and terrorists. It just means that any actual danger signs will be swamped in the general sea of paranoia.

For example, as has already been pointed out the vast majority of sexual assault by men is from men known to the victim; but as we see in this thread that fact has been almost totally obscured by the conviction that all men at all times should be feared. Women in America appear to typically have such a general, constant fear of men that they are blind to any that are actually dangerous; the dangerous ones are lost in the mostly-imaginary crowd.

[Krouget]

@ladyfoxfyre

It does suck for men who aren’t rapists to be subjected to the fear response women take when they are alone. You know who it also sucks for? It sucks a lot more for the women who have been raped who fear similar situations.

I don’t think it needs to be a case of “it sucks a lot more for”. We can acknowledge that it represents an unfortunate situation for any individual involved, without trying to marginalize its impact on anyone in specific. We have to be sensitive to all those who are affected, because it’s the irresponsible, self-serving actions of the *actual *criminal which causes such ripples in our society, which eventually come to bear on innocent people and their benign actions-- selfish actions unweave that social fabric.

It’s sad to see the thread progress the way it did, but overall, this is an unfortunate circumstance that we, as a society, have to address. To do so, we have to keep our ears open to all those involved. Defending against potential rape or child victimization is important, but we also have a responsibility to be civil towards others, in tandem with this, or we’re simply shifting the disservice.

I understand the men are offended, but frankly they can get over it. Her fear response isn’t causing them any actual harm. Nobody pulled a switch blade on anybody. She held her keys in a defensive stance and hid them from his sight. Let’s try and keep the offense to what actually happened and not other things which also might have happened in an alternate remembering of events.

We can’t assume too much about her past history, or his, for that matter, assuming we want to remain impartial and objective. Ultimately, her response was not an example of normal social behavior, so it elicited the reaction it did-- whether we feel it was justified or not is up for debate, but without facts regarding her history, we’d only be fabricating her past to suit an argument. That’s not doing anyone any good, but ourselves.

Personally, I don’t think citing social anxieties, then telling people to “just deal with it”, is the best way to address traumatic situations. That attitude really doesn’t help either victim, as the motivation should be to rehabilitate the victim (more so in the case of rape and child victimization), so that they may resume normal integration with society. In the situations that I’ve personally seen, that has always been the objective, and for the better of everyone involved, past, present, and future.

@ladyfoxfyre

Yeah, and if you changed the pepper spray to a knife, and changed the knife to a gun, and then changed the gun to a nuclear weapon OMG CHIMERA SURVIVED AN ATTEMPTED TERROR ATTACK!

In the state of MD, though you’re legally allowed to own it, pepper spray is considered a weapon, and if it’s determined that the use wasn’t justified, you could be charged for a crime. Cite - PDF titled “Criminal Law 4-101”

From there, a judge is best left to interpret the situation.

[SciFiSam]

@Der_Trihs

“Men” are not. Some men are. You are using the same logic used to profile blacks as criminals and Muslims as terrorists, a practice which is both bigoted and counterproductive. Looking at half the human race with fear and hatred isn’t going to make you safer, just as racial and religious profiling doesn’t catch criminals and terrorists. It just means that any actual danger signs will be swamped in the general sea of paranoia.

For example, as has already been pointed out the vast majority of sexual assault by men is from men known to the victim; but as we see in this thread that fact has been almost totally obscured by the conviction that all men at all times should be feared. Women in America appear to typically have such a general, constant fear of men that they are blind to any that are actually dangerous; the dangerous ones are lost in the mostly-imaginary crowd.

You can be extra-wary of unknown men without hating all men. And you can be wary of strangers whilst also knowing that most rapes are by people we are familiar with.

Do you really think it’s news most rapes are by men known to the victim? Has anyone in this thread claimed otherwise? You’re fighting against strawmen again.

[Una_Persson]

@Leo_Bloom

Una, do you think you can use that experience to stay collected in the next (hopefully not) situation?

Well I hope so, but we’ll see.

The reason–I am by no means saying this was a good one (I’ve been a Zen and art of Samurai from way back, and like you, I think, was a fencer (I think you are one, but anyway)–was anger. An anger I’ve never felt in my life, and that upset me the most in aftermath. My anger always rises quite high when I am with my dog and someone makes life hard with aggression towards him. Much, much more than any made towards me.

A not so good preparation for violence.

I do full-contact martial arts fencing, with real but blunted weapons and no armor, and it not only involves swords but knives, bucklers, daggers, and improvised weapons. We are allow to punch, kick, grapple, throw, and even head-butt during the fighting, when we get within too close.

That being said, it’s the most useless martial art there is - the only thing it has given me is some strength, lots of balance and quickness, and some stamina. But girlfriend, if I had my sword with me…yeah, right, I almost typed it without laughing.

Anger is difficult for me now. Back in the day I used to have a temper and be a cast-iron bitch to people, often on the Straight Dope Message Board. Some of them deserved it, others did not. When I was angry I would get unreasonable and take things personally. When everything changed last year I all of a sudden flipped to where I don’t get mad at anyone really, almost no matter what they do. I was scared in the attack on me, but not actually mad. That doesn’t mean I can’t get upset of sad, but anger just…isn’t there anymore. It’s like taking a step with a sore foot and being shocked when it doesn’t hurt.

Because I’m happy all the time I’m less guarded and too doesn’t help.

[SirGalahad]

An interesting bit of statistics, data for which is probably not even available in sufficient quantity to draw conclusions, would be the numbers of women who started a violent confrontation with a husband or boyfriend who merely defended themselves, and then the distaff member of the altercation calls 911 and charges the “victim” with domestic violence. I’ve seen that happen several times.

I’ve also heard of a one night stand turned into a rape accusation based on a woman being subsequently ignored and rejected.

Men have something to fear from women who are either violent, psychopathic, or just plain mean, simply because they are women, and society treats them differently than men.

I gather most men don’t willingly report mistreatment at the hands of a woman … and when the woman makes a report, unless a trial follows with sworn witnesses and forensic evidence, the public will reflexively side with the woman.

[pancakes3]

Oh Galahad…

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Der_Trihs

For example, as has already been pointed out the vast majority of sexual assault by men is from men known to the victim; but as we see in this thread that fact has been almost totally obscured by the conviction that all men at all times should be feared.

Once again, this is missing the point. When determining the risk of stranger rape, what matters isn’t the ratio of acquaintance rape to stranger rape. That’s a totally irrelevant statistic. What matters is some combination of the absolute frequency of stranger rape, combined with the severity of harm from stranger rape.

I’ve seen some evidence in this thread that the ratio of stranger rape to acquaintance rape is misrepresented in DOJ figures; while I’m not convinced by this evidence, I’ll stipulate that that ratio may be off. From my understanding, though, what throws it off is that acquaintance rape is far more common than DOJ stats show: I haven’t seen anyone suggest evidence that their stranger rape stats are too high (if I’ve missed such evidence please point it out).

If their numbers of ~20K stranger rapes annually are accurate, then of course that’s a danger we’ll pay attention to. We spend a lot of time avoiding far less common risks: compare to, for example, the 2500 deaths in house fires annually. Are these deaths so vanishingly rare that we think it’s absurd to worry about them? Or do we expect people will take measures to avoid dangers even when they happen to a relatively small number of people?

[SirGalahad]

@pancakes3

Oh Galahad…

There are frail maidens .. then there are the Gorgons. Princesses, witches. Watch out for the witches, (at least the MacBethian ones).