# Guys ask girls out- useful convention, or unfair burden? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 3, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232 "2012-01-03T06:00:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/41 "2012-01-03T18:18:59Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Consider two guys: One who just wants to have fun and one who wants to have a relationship. > > Fun guy will ask lots of girls out because he’s just looking to have fun. It doesn’t really matter how compatible she is. He’s looking for a few days or weeks of fun. He’s good at asking girls out because he’s doing it a couple of times a week. Practice makes perfect and he’s had lots of opportunities to hone his skill. > > Relationship guy will be searching for a woman who is suitable for a long-term relationship. Rather than being happy with anything female, he’s looking for a woman with several different qualities. He doesn’t run into these women often–maybe just a handful a year. He might only ask a woman out a couple of times a year. He’s probably clumsy because he doesn’t know how to go about it. > > So if a woman is basing her decision on a relationship on how well the man approaches her, she’s really being conned. He knows how to approach and what to say because he’s practiced it hundreds of times on other women–women he’s no longer in a relationship with. The smoother a guy is, the better chance that he’s just looking to have a bit of fun until the next thing comes along. The thing that the goal of dating is not to find the love of your life. That comes later. The goal in dating is to get to know someone, have fun, and assess if the two of you have the potential to be the loves of each other’s lives. THEN you spend time together, map out your mutual desires, and move together towards commitment Deciding, without having previously interacted with me romantically, that we have long term potential, is frankly offensive. I don’t want to be a character in some romance you wrote about me without my input. I want to be appreciated as who I am, and to write my romances together with my partner. And I can’t do that if you’ve already decided my part without even getting to know me. Anyway, If you only meet one or two women a year that you think are worth getting to know better, something is wrong with you and you probably have some issues with women. Getting to know a lot of women doesn’t mean you have to sleep with all of them and be a player. But it shouldnt be too tough for a normal person to find a lady they’d like to have a cup of coffee or a drink with. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/42 "2012-01-03T18:28:01Z")
An aside: in my experiences in online dating, it’s the women who have “Long Term Realtionship,” not dating, friends, hang-out, etc., in their goal field who always have one finger on the ejector seat button. Make of that what you will. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/43 "2012-01-03T18:28:16Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Deciding, without having previously interacted with me romantically, that we have long term potential, is frankly offensive. Damn straight. Thats almost as bad as handshake rape. Thats just silly. You are OFFENDED a guy would bother to at least get an inkling of whether you are his long term type before he gets up the nerve to ask you out? So, what you are saying is you’d rather just date random guys that have no idea whether you are long term material or not?! ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/44 "2012-01-03T18:34:34Z")
I probably asked as often as I was asked, back in the day, and only once can I recall seriously having a guy be put off by the fact that I asked. In that way it was a great filtering device since I was not interested in a game-playing relationship or one dominated by fixed gender expectations. Usually it seemed to be a matter of who got the ask into the conversation first. It would have seriously sucked to have felt I needed to sit and wait and hope. I never did the sitting by the phone and hoping he would call thing once high school was over. Of course, it was as likely I had his phone number as he had mine. So, unfair burden to both is I suppose my answer to the OP. And a strong indicator that someone is regarding sex as a commodity. I prefer sex as mutual entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/45 "2012-01-03T18:53:39Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The thing that the goal of dating is not to find the love of your life. That comes later. The goal in dating is to get to know someone, have fun, and assess if the two of you have the potential to be the loves of each other’s lives. THEN you spend time together . . .\ . . . for you. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/46 "2012-01-03T19:32:41Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Anyway, If you only meet one or two women a year that you think are worth getting to know better, something is wrong with you and you probably have some issues with women. Did you just start this thread so you’d have an excuse to judge people or what? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/47 "2012-01-03T19:45:34Z")
> [@Mrs.Cake](#): > > So, unfair burden to both is I suppose my answer to the OP. And a strong indicator that someone is regarding sex as a commodity. I prefer sex as mutual entertainment. This is one thing I meant to get at in the other thread and this. The current dating system treats the woman and the man as if the woman is the only one with something that has value to “give” to the man, and the only value a man adds to any given courtship is picking up the tab and getting the ball rolling. It seems degrading for both to me. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/48 "2012-01-03T19:55:37Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Did you just start this thread so you’d have an excuse to judge people or what? I figure she might be getting rather defensive at this point, given the overwhelming disagreement with her. So far, the only person who significantly agrees with her is msmith, who has more sophisticated opinions on economics than he does on relationships. msmith might as well just have posted this as his comment: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS1pobj6RLI](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS1pobj6RLI) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/49 "2012-01-03T19:56:54Z")
Unfair, ridiculous, sexist burden that benefits only a handful of men and women. Men and women are all individuals with different levels of confidence and self-awareness. Everyone should strive to find a method that works for them. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/50 "2012-01-03T20:01:13Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Deciding, without having previously interacted with me romantically, that we have long term potential, is frankly offensive. I don’t want to be a character in some romance you wrote about me without my input. I want to be appreciated as who I am, and to write my romances together with my partner. And I can’t do that if you’ve already decided my part without even getting to know me. You’re not going to meet relationship-guy at the bar. It’s more likely that relationship-guy has already interacted with you for some time at work or school. He’s seen you over a period of time and found that you have many qualities that he finds attractive. When he clumsily asks you out and you say no, he takes it hard because, out of the hundreds of women he knows, you were the one he was really interested in and he really hoped it would work out with you. When just-for-fun guy asks you out and you say no, he shrugs his shoulders, turns the woman next to you, and asks her out. He repeats this processes until he gets a yes. There’s nothing wrong with going out with just-for-fun guy. If you’re not looking for a relationship, then have fun. What’s frustrating is when women say they are looking for a long-term relationship but then go out with these practiced guys who pick them up in the bar by saying well rehearsed key phrases. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/51 "2012-01-03T20:07:39Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The thing that the goal of dating is not to find the love of your life. I don’t know if you know this, but you actually don’t speak for everyone and don’t get to define their motives and relationships to suit you. Some people date just to have fun. Some people date to find the love of their lives, and it may be fun or it may be exhausting or it may be a mix of the two or something entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/52 "2012-01-03T21:13:28Z")
There are no hard rules for this. If anyone–male or female–wants to date quality people, then it would be prudent for them to use a strategy that improves their chances of dating quality people. Even though this is decided on a case-by-case basis, some generalizations can be made. All other things being equal, a guy who approaches women will date more than a guy who expects women to approach him. This has nothing to do with fairness (at least as it’s typically defined), and all to do with him making himself more desirable to the opposite sex. If it’s unfair that women screen out men who don’t approach them, is it also unfair for them to screen out men that are perceived to physically unattractive or any other attribute? I say not. “Unfair burden” is a weird phrase to be using in the context of dating. What about the women, you ask? The same logic holds, and as before, it has nothing to do with fairness or unfairness. As long as men pursue women more than the converse, then to be competitive, men will have to do the asking moreso than women. And as long as women still get hit on in the absence of any chasing on their part, then they’ll continue to be more passive when it comes to initiating dates. Where the sexism comes into play is the assumptions that we make about a person based on their preference. Men who break from convention and prefer that women pursue them are not necessarily weak and effeminate, just like women who break from convention and pursue men are not necessarily ball-breaking, domineering she-males. Gender expectations are evolving, and our assumptions should be evolving as well. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/53 "2012-01-03T21:14:57Z")
I think it’s a silly and no longer relevant convention; however, back when I was single, I never asked men out. Not because I objected to the idea, but for me, being desired by a man (i.e. being asked out) really was the first step for me to notice a guy in a sexy way. So, for me personally, the men always had to do the asking, because I wouldn’t think about them in that way until they did - I’m just wired that way. I also know that there are men who are put off by women doing the asking - really, I don’t think that means they’re jerks, I think it’s just they way some people roll. So, in summary, everyone should be able to ask or be asked in whatever way they prefer, understanding that their preference isn’t necessarily going to match up with the preference of the person they’re interested in. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/54 "2012-01-03T21:33:15Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > When he clumsily asks you out and you say no, he takes it hard because, out of the hundreds of women he knows, you were the one he was really interested in and he really hoped it would work out with you. To be fair to the OP, however shy a guy may be he should at some point become aware that when taking chances with anything in life he should go in having already taken into account what happens if the result is “fail”. Don’t skydive w/o a reserve chute(\*), don’t go to the craps table with the child support money in your pocket, prepare so that if the lady you approach shoots you down you can then exit the stage with dignity (\*\*). (It does help if she shoots you down in such a manner that you’re still ambulatory…:p) Couple of comments, must say, **even sven** , that I agree that merely casually lunching or having coffee shouldn’t really click so much in the stress meter insofar as to me that’s just common social interaction I can have with friends, neighbors and coworkers of all genders, ages and relationship status. But it is indeed the “social convention” that when that happens between two “free” persons of the appropriate genders it means someone is testing you out for potential for something else, and you know how people do get stressed out over tests. BTW, “is he confident and decisive enough to make the first move” does not tell you jack squat about whether or not he “gets you” or can learn to (or even really how confident and decisive was he in the process of getting to make that first move, he may have been Hamleting it for the last four months for all we know). Another comment was, that in a prior comment I failed to distinguish that the PUA and the Player are not always one and the same. The old-school Player may be resented or envied, but if he’s not a total ass he can also earn grudging respect as the type often described as “women want him and men want to be him”, who has a talent for reading what the ladies want AND can deliver it. The Pick-Up Artist, OTOH, is reviled, despised, mocked, for making it a mechanistic game all about himself and his alpha status. (_OK so in this one the risk/benefit equation is off the wall…) (_\* Or would that also be “writing a romance about you without telling you”? You’re still in the script:D) ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/55 "2012-01-03T22:34:43Z")
A lot of people (I think including the OP) seem to think that the traditional system in which men ask women out is beneficial to women. I think it’s the other way around. Obviously, it’s a simplification, but the dating game can be considered a form of the [Stable Marriage Problem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_marriage_problem). Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation of why the traditional process of male suitors and female reviewers generally favors the men. One way to think about this intuitively is that the men have a chance at any woman, while the women only have a chance with the subset that asks them. Given the way that traditional patriarchal societies seem to favor the “man takes the initiative” approach, it’s not too surprising that this approach tends to work out better for men than women. Obviously, there are other things to consider. If the man pays for the date, then it requires more of a risk on his part. If we assume that women are looking for something long-term and men aren’t, then we’re no longer looking for a stable pairing but for something else. Still, at a basic level, limiting yourself to the suitors who present themselves to you is going to leave you with fewer options than if you pursue those that _you’re_ more interested in. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/56 "2012-01-03T22:53:02Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Still, at a basic level, limiting yourself to the suitors who present themselves to you is going to leave you with fewer options than if you pursue those that _you’re_ more interested in. I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say. But it’s complicated when you consider the variables that women are attracted to. If, by definition, an attractive man is one who makes the initial romantic overture, then a woman may not find a lot of men she feels like pursuing if they’re all hanging back, waiting for her to notice them. If she overrides her feelings and chases men that she’s only so-so about, then she may be tying up her availabilty to assertive men that truly light her fire. So she may not really be better off than those who take the passive approach. I don’t know. At the root of it is attraction, and there’s really no accounting for taste, as they say. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/57 "2012-01-03T22:54:44Z")
Whoa…whoa… People think that being the one expected to be the ‘aggressor’/the one to ask out…is a negative/disadvantage? No way! Yes, you have to get used to rejection but, hell, dealing with rejection in an emotionally stable way is a wonderful life skill and, like all skills, requires practice to get better. You can also gauge interest without asking her out as well. Tis much better to be able to ask out whoever you wish without societal negative judgment than to have to wait for others to ask you out. Stop dwelling on rejection. Rejection is a part of life. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/58 "2012-01-03T23:03:33Z")
By God I think I’ve got it figured out. The shy guys need to just ask out women left and right. If the women says “yes” and she’s really not something he is interested in he just replies “I was just asking, no thanks”. That way shy guy gets the practice he needs so when he spots someone who he actually IS interested in he can hit her in a way that makes her heart flutter. This way women who expect men to do the asking and do it just right will be happy. Shy guys will actually get the women they want sooner rather than later. Sounds like a fair win win to me. Spread the word fellow shy guys! I think I need to go write a how to book now and hit the circuit. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/59 "2012-01-03T23:05:25Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Another comment was, that in a prior comment I failed to distinguish that the PUA and the Player are not always one and the same. The old-school Player may be resented or envied, but if he’s not a total ass he can also earn grudging respect as the type often described as “women want him and men want to be him”, who has a talent for reading what the ladies want AND can deliver it. The Pick-Up Artist, OTOH, is reviled, despised, mocked, for making it a mechanistic game all about himself and his alpha status. I would say that the difference is that a Player is a “natural”; he always comes across very well to new women possibly without even knowing how he is doing it. Conversely a PUA is someone making the conscious effort to be better at approaching women. That’s all. I understand that PUAs are now vilified in America in particular, but I don’t think the image matches reality. If you read The Game for example, it’s a fairly mature book where the author turns his life around, makes a lot of women happy and then settles down. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232/60 "2012-01-03T23:17:45Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I think it’s a silly and no longer relevant convention; however, back when I was single, I never asked men out. > > Not because I objected to the idea, but for me, being desired by a man (i.e. being asked out) really was the first step for me to notice a guy in a sexy way. So, for me personally, the men always had to do the asking, because I wouldn’t think about them in that way until they did - I’m just wired that way. I asked a few guys (3 or 4) out back during college but no longer do. Why? Like the book **He’s Just Not That Into You** suggests, it’s not really worth the effort because if they were interested enough they’d do the pursuing. They weren’t, they didn’t, it was always a waste of time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-ask-girls-out-useful-convention-or-unfair-burden/608232.md?page=4)