# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/222 "2013-04-12T14:13:32Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > I know some silly women do play the ‘No’ means ‘Tee hee, aren’t I flirty?!’ game, but seriously, if all guys just treated ‘No’ as ‘No’, eventually the silly girls would grow the fuck up and quit playing, because they’d never get laid. > > It’d be an all round win, really. But the game is fun for some people, both men and women. It’s fun for me. It’s an easy game to play, too. I act all coy and shy and he coaxes me. Or, I shut his ass down cold and he beats it. (heh). I have never had confusion, because men know damn well the difference between hard to get and get the fuck out. Now, if men want to play dumb, they should understand that they won’t get a ‘well women play games and send mixed signals’ pass. If men honestly can’t figure it out, they should never, ever play the game of hard to get. They should await clear and concise and enthusiastic consent. Princhester did the right thing with his weirdo girl…he passed that hard to get shit up until he had clear communication. Good job. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/223 "2013-04-12T14:18:02Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > True enough but then just make sure you know there is blame aplenty to go around for this situation, on both sides of the gender divide. > > I think I may have told the long version of this story on the SDMB before (in a similar thread): I was once the male in an extremely similar situation, involving a young lady who was hospitable to me in a logistically awkward situation. Like you she made it clear - crystal clear - that the fact she was inviting me in was not in any way to be taken as a signal that she was, yanno, “_inviting me in_”. > > I was gentlemanly about it and took her at her word.. > > Some few months later we actually ended up in bed together. At which point she told me she had been so frustrated and angry at me that I hadn’t made a move on her that night a few months before. She _couldn’t believe_ I had just taken her at her word when she’d said that her inviting me in wasn’t intended to mean anything. > > So don’t think this is entirely about men being fucked up. There’s definitely women who are fucked up in that particular way. Men who fail to take “no” for a “no” and women who expect their “no” to be taken for a “yes” are like Rule Girls and PUAs in that they deserve each other and degrade the quality of interactions for the rest of us. I see that it could seem frustrating to have people behave like that but it doesn’t seem to be much of a loss to take a “no” for a “no” even if an occasional silly person wants you to read her mind and guess it’s a “yes”. Either “no” means “no”\* or the other person is reckless about putting you in a very problematic situation. If the latter, isn’t it wise to have very little to do with such a person? Was that particular woman in the habit of demanding that her mind be read and getting angry when you failed to overlook what she said and read her thoughts? \*Notwithstanding BDSM scenarios where it’s explicitely agreed that “no” doesn’t mean “no” and a safe signal is agreed upon. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/224 "2013-04-12T14:21:00Z")
Rules girls? PUA? Bondage games? Doesn’t anyone else just get turned on by the little ‘I got what you want and am going to tease you’ dance? I had no idea it was so confusing for so many? Am I some kind of freak? Hard to get has always been a common little bit of fun with the men I have dated. I’ve honestly never had one be confused. And I have never had a guy I am rejecting somehow mistakenly think I was teasing or being coy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/225 "2013-04-12T14:24:06Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > If **MOL** ’s date had fired a ‘warning shot’, the night would pretty much have been over anyway, no? No way. **Mean Old Lady** is so hot that her date could have reloaded in twenty minutes or so. He has to act fast, before the judge signs the restraining order. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/226 "2013-04-12T14:30:30Z")
Good lords. A whole lot of crazy happened here while I was out getting drunk. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Missed the edit window. Put it this way: if **MOL** had said, “hey, I’m digging the conversation, the bar’s about to close. Let’s go back to my place, I got some Old Forester, we could continue our talk, and then we can call you a cab,” I could see some room for possible confusion. That’s not a “green light,” but I would construe it as possibly a positive sign. But the exchange as given in the OP? No. Jebus, thank you. Not fucking hard, and yet… > [@stui\_magpie](#): > > I’ve had first had experience of a woman who needed to be seduced. She was apparently ready to go home, we were both standing when I came up behind her, put my hands on her waist and kissed her gently on the neck. Her mouth said “No”, her actions by pushing back against my groin and grabbing my hands and sliding them up to her breasts said something quite different. Couple of minutes later, she grabbed me by the front of the pants, asked where the bedroom was and led me there. That’s nice, but that’s not what happened to me. My words and actions both clearly and repeatedly said “no.” > [@stui\_magpie](#): > > I must have read a different one because my reading was he wasn’t getting another date, let alone many more. He was not getting another date. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Anyway, **MOL** …you didn’t actually use the word “disabused” in a sentence directed toward him, did you? Its no wonder he didn’t listen! Ha! I can’t remember my exact wording. I may have used littler words so his pea brain would get it. Hmm, maybe not little enough because he still clearly didn’t understand the words that I used. “No fucky fucky. Ever.” is what I should have said. > [@Princhester](#): > > So don’t think this is entirely about men being fucked up. Yes it is. I don’t care that there are some people in the world who are full of shit. You should still operate under the assumption that a person means what they say. If I offer someone a cracker and they say “No, thanks” I don’t think, “Hmm, well she said no, but I ran into someone once who lied, so maybe she’s lying. I’m going to give her the cracker anyway.” No. I rescind the fucking cracker like a normal person, and if it turns out she secretly loves crackers, that’s her fucking problem for not taking it when I offered it to her. I’m not going to run around forcing shit on people on the off chance that I’m dealing with a little fucking child who can’t just say what they want. She said no, so fuck it. Anyone who doesn’t take no for an answer because there are people out there who are silly (as if that matters) is fucked up. Period. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I kind of wish **Mean Old Lady** had started this in the pit. I know. I kind of want to call some people cunts. Or, I dunno, one of the five expletives that we’re still allowed to say over there. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/227 "2013-04-12T14:33:47Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Rules girls? PUA? Doesn’t anyone else just get turned on by the little ‘I got what you want and am going to tease you’ dance? I had no idea it was so confusing for so many? Am I some kind of freak? Hard to get has always been a common little bit of fun with the men I have dated. I’ve honestly never had one be confused. And I have never had a guy I am rejecting somehow mistakenly think I was teasing or being coy. It’s not a game I’ve ever played. If I’m not interested in sex with a guy, I use my words. If I am interested in sex with a guy, I use my words or make a move. Flirting is all the game I’m inclined to play; when it comes to physical activity I’d rather have clearly defined boundaries or lack thereof. This feeds the wrong ideas guys get from PUAs and Hollywood. Frankly I’d rather not have a date with one of your exes who, after having successfully “persuaded” you to have sex, attempted to push me farther than I want to go. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky_the_Wonder_Spirit)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/228 "2013-04-12T14:40:57Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Yeah, I realize that. You do realize that prostitution is **illegal** and probably much of the reason those rapes occur, right? In the sense that Prostitutes have no legal recourse should the situation occur. Because when a woman who is not engaged in illegal activity is raped, the rapist is of course always caught and punished. Oh … wait … ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/229 "2013-04-12T14:41:57Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It’s not a game I’ve ever played. If I’m not interested in sex with a guy, I use my words. If I am interested in sex with a guy, I use my words or make a move. Flirting is all the game I’m inclined to play; when it comes to physical activity I’d rather have clearly defined boundaries or lack thereof. This feeds the wrong ideas guys get from PUAs and Hollywood. Frankly I’d rather not have a date with one of your exes who, after having successfully “persuaded” you to have sex, attempted to push me farther than I want to go. You don’t have to play any game you don’t want to. That is the beauty of freedom. It’s not my job to train my exes to be easier for you to handle. You are a big girl, and can take care of yourself. I am making the point that a lot of people DO like the game. So men who pretend not to recognize it when they see it are probably full of shit. Women playing a bit coy and then giving in is a common game that lots of couples like to play. It doesn’t help us to put men in check if we pretend this doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/230 "2013-04-12T14:47:56Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > You don’t have to play any game you don’t want to. That is the beauty of freedom. It’s not my job to train my exes to be easier for you to handle. You are a big girl, and can take care of yourself. > > I am making the point that a lot of people DO like the game. So men who pretend not to recognize it when they see it are probably full of shit. Women playing a bit coy and then giving in is a common game that lots of couples like to play. It doesn’t help us to put men in check if we pretend this doesn’t exist. I’m assuming you date confident, savvy men with loads of dating experience. This discussion is chock full of men claiming they are powerless to obey anything but the peen, men demanding pity fucks, and men claiming that women say no but don’t mean it. It doesn’t help these guys to assume, based on your contribution here, that no means anything but no. Any guy who is even remotely unsure should ignore “no” at his own peril. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/231 "2013-04-12T14:50:05Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > You don’t have to play any game you don’t want to. That is the beauty of freedom. It’s not my job to train my exes to be easier for you to handle. You are a big girl, and can take care of yourself. > > I am making the point that a lot of people DO like the game. So men who pretend not to recognize it when they see it are probably full of shit. Women playing a bit coy and then giving in is a common game that lots of couples like to play. It doesn’t help us to put men in check if we pretend this doesn’t exist. That’s nice, but we’ve gone over this. There’s a difference between coquettish game playing and being like “This shit is not going down. Not now, not ever.” If you (not you you, but you) wanna play your game, knock yourself out, but if someone lays that shit out for you and you keep persisting, you’re a grade A cuntface. So speaking of which, I relayed this story to a bunch of friends last night, and their responses were a bit disturbing. They all agreed that the guy was a jerk and that it should have been clear what the deal was, but some of them pretty much said that you can’t be nice to a guy for any reason ever. Damn, it’s like that, huh? I guess I’m going to have to date from now on in full fledged bitch mode. ☹ Also, this one guy I e-mailed the story to defended the guy and said I was stupid for doing the dude a favor. Okay! Lost all respect for dude right then and there. All of it is gone. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/232 "2013-04-12T14:58:01Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > That’s nice, but we’ve gone over this. There’s a difference between coquettish game playing and being like “This shit is not going down. Not now, not ever.” If you (not you you, but you) wanna play your game, knock yourself out, but if someone lays that shit out for you and you keep persisting, you’re a grade A cuntface.\ Yeah, well, I wanna go over it again, because apparently a lot of folks don’t get it. I got posters thinking it’s my damn job to groom my lovers to be _their_ potential future lovers! Women playing hard to get is common, and men can’t use that as an excuse to play dumb when they are told a hard ‘no’. ETA: Troppus, I agree with your last post, but it doesn’t have anything to do with what I posted. Edit again…yes, it does have something to do with my post…I should have said, I don’t bite my tongue on honest contribution just because I don’t want to encourage the dummies. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/233 "2013-04-12T15:08:54Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Yeah, well, I wanna go over it again, because apparently a lot of folks don’t get it. I got posters thinking it’s my damn job to groom my lovers to be _their_ potential future lovers! > > Women playing hard to get is common, and men can’t use that as an excuse to play dumb when they are told a hard ‘no’. > > ETA: Troppus, I agree with your last post, but it doesn’t have anything to do with what I posted. > > Edit again…yes, it does have something to do with my post…I should have said, I don’t bite my tongue on honest contribution just because I don’t want to encourage the dummies. Dating hazard. You might just end up with one of my exes who flat walks out the door and leaves you with a cold bed once you start the “I’d better not…” game. Which scenario do you prefer? Guy who flat walks out when you start blocking, or stuck with MOL’s persistent turkey who won’t take no for an answer? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/234 "2013-04-12T15:14:02Z")
Haha, I would be soooo shocked and set straight if some guy just nonchalantly walked off and left my ass standing there trying to look flirty and shy. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/235 "2013-04-12T15:22:48Z")
If I’m dealing with an adult human being, I trust them to say what they mean and mean what they say. So the exchange detailed in the OP mystifies me quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/236 "2013-04-12T15:28:59Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > If I’m dealing with an adult human being, I trust them to say what they mean and mean what they say. So the exchange detailed in the OP mystifies me quite a bit. Hence why you’re _MostlyClueless_! : ) But yeah, I understand perfectly well that there are people who act and communicate like that and I can empathize if not sympathize with them. May they get everything they want and want everything they get. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/237 "2013-04-12T15:35:16Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > If I’m dealing with an adult human being, I trust them to say what they mean and mean what they say. So the exchange detailed in the OP mystifies me quite a bit. Well just keep rollin’ with that and you will be fine. The situation in the OP isn’t a mystery; the guy was just being a jerk. He wasn’t confused. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/238 "2013-04-12T15:40:08Z")
OK, I’m confused now. **Nzinga, Seated** - you actually tell guys “No, there will be no sex happening” and expect them to talk you out of it? If not, can you be specific or give an example of the type of interaction you’re talking about? And if you say something like that and mean “yeah, sure, I just want some attention”, then exactly how is it that you communicate “no” in order to shut his ass down cold? ETA: Also, is this something you do on first dates? Second or third? Or in ongoing relationships? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/239 "2013-04-12T15:42:17Z")
So after reading this thread I’ve learned a few things. When a chick invites you back to her place it is only because she wants sex, and when she says no when I’m chasing after her with my pants around my ankles and I’m helicoptering my dick at her she really means, “You are so damn sexy, my panties are soaked, and I want you right now.” This place finally lives up to its motto. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/240 "2013-04-12T15:52:41Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I am making the point that a lot of people DO like the game. Poll to follow? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/241 "2013-04-12T15:54:06Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > OK, I’m confused now. > > **Nzinga, Seated** - you actually tell guys “No, there will be no sex happening” and expect them to talk you out of it?\ Wow. This is the opposite of everything I’ve posted. You really are confused… People aren’t just playing dumb after all. Ok, I’m busy and am posting from my phone. When I get time, I will explain better. I’ll be back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=13)