# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/242 "2013-04-12T16:13:23Z")
To be fair **Nzinga** , I was a little confused exactly by what you meant about “hard to get” and “coy, shy, flirty” but I think I can imagine a pretty clear difference between that and what MOL said/did in her OP and how the guy acted. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/243 "2013-04-12T16:22:19Z")
I think **Diosa** ’s example earlier does a pretty good job of illustrating the difference between being flirtatious and coy and outright telling someone that X will not be happening. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/244 "2013-04-12T16:28:42Z")
The example in question (what, it woulda killed you to quote it? 😉 ): > [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > We’re on a date, it’s going awesome. You walk me to my car, we say our goodbyes, hug, and you reach in for a mouth on mouth kiss. I turn my head at the last second so you only get a peck on the cheek. I say, “Don’t get me wrong, you’re awesome and I had the BEST time, but I don’t kiss on the first date or two. Maybe if we go out again ;).” > > That’s playing coy. Hard to get. Wanting to be chased. Whatever you want to call it. > > Let’s say we’re on a second or third date, watching a movie on your couch or at my place. We’re snuggling. We’re kissing. We’re doing all that cutesie shit. I pause and say, “Look, I just want to be upfront: I’m totally down for snuggling and kissing, but I’m not looking to have sex tonight.” One of two things can happen now. Either you can agree and be a decent human being, which leads to many more hours of snuggling and kissing and enjoying each other’s company, but no sex. Or you can be that douchebag who then spends the next two hours trying to direct my hand to your erection. > > That scenario? That’s not playing hard to get. That’s not being coy or wanting you to convince me to fuck you. That’s me directly telling you-- using my grown up words-- what I want. If you choose to ignore that and not respect me enough to honor my wishes, you’re kind of the worst. > > Protip: the first guy usually gets laid on the next date— the second doesn’t even get another date. I think **Nzinga** is talking about something a little more oblique than this–am I wrong? Because this sounds pretty straightforward to me, and there are absolutely people that aren’t as straightforward as this. I like to think I was a pretty good boyfriend, and I like to think that I’m a pretty good husband, but I know I was a lousy flirter and a horrible dater. That whole beginning-courtship thing involves some skills that I’ve just never been able to develop. Mixed signals really mystified me; games made no sense to me. So I didn’t pursue. Which is, I think, the only correct course if you’re not absolutely sure of what you’re doing, sure that the other person consents. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/245 "2013-04-12T16:28:53Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > I think **Diosa** ’s example earlier does a pretty good job of illustrating the difference between being flirtatious and coy and outright telling someone that X will not be happening. Yes, I was going to point people to that excellent post, because this phone posting is driving me crazy. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/246 "2013-04-12T16:35:30Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > For one, we are all a product of our times in some sense. I can imagine the guy in the OP is somewhat sexually frustrated. That doesn’t take make his actions excusable but we should consider the source of frustration. I’m sorry…I had no idea there was such a rash of bilateral arm amputees among the XY-possessing population. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/247 "2013-04-12T16:39:21Z")
There’s nothing new under the sun. Excerpt from _Pride and Prejudice_: Him: “When I do myself the honour of speaking to you next on the subject, I shall hope to receive a more favourable answer than you have now given me; though I am far from accusing you of cruelty at present, because I know it to be the established custom of your sex to reject a man on the first application, and perhaps you have even now said as much to encourage my suit as would be consistent with the true delicacy of the female character.” Her: “Really, Mr. Collins,” cried Elizabeth with some warmth, “you puzzle me exceedingly. If what I have hitherto said can appear to you in the form of encouragement, I know not how to express my refusal in such a way as to convince you of its being one.” Him: “You must give me leave to flatter myself, my dear cousin, that your refusal of my addresses is merely words of course.” ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/248 "2013-04-12T16:39:45Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m sorry…I had no idea there was such a rash of bilateral arm amputees among the XY-possessing population. I’m more mystified by the idea that sexual frustration is anyone else’s problem. Or that there is a shortage of internet porn, magazines, or strip clubs… ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/249 "2013-04-12T16:42:24Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > I think **Diosa** ’s example earlier does a pretty good job of illustrating the difference between being flirtatious and coy and outright telling someone that X will not be happening. The problem is that lots of women say X will not happen, and they probably even mean it when they say it. But what they mean is “just talk me into saying yes, because that’s what I really want and I don’t want to seem like a slut.” Happens all the time. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/250 "2013-04-12T16:44:36Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’m more mystified by the idea that sexual frustration is anyone else’s problem. Or that there is a shortage of internet porn, magazines, or strip clubs… That’s what I meant…they don’t have hands? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/251 "2013-04-12T16:45:35Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > The problem is that lots of women say X will not happen, and they probably even mean it when they say it. But what they mean is “just talk me into saying yes, because that’s what I really want and I don’t want to seem like a slut.” Happens all the time. And you recommend testing that “no” to the readers here? Y u hate men, **Living Well**? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/252 "2013-04-12T16:46:47Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > That’s what I meant…they don’t have hands? I gotcha, I was just expounding for the “spell it out for me” crew. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/253 "2013-04-12T16:46:51Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m sorry…I had no idea there was such a rash of bilateral arm amputees among the XY-possessing population. …That one took me a minute. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/254 "2013-04-12T16:47:54Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > The problem is that lots of women say X will not happen, and they probably even mean it when they say it. But what they mean is “just talk me into saying yes, because that’s what I really want and I don’t want to seem like a slut.” Happens all the time. So, what would you rather do: Force yourself on a woman on the off chance she’s one of those crazy bitches playing some weird game because it may lead to you putting your dick in someone. . . risking maybe forcing yourself on a woman whose no definitely means no, opening yourself up to a bad reputation or rape accusations? Or just not forcing yourself on anybody and only dating women whose words mean what the rest of our words mean? Yet another pro tip: why would you want to stick your dick in the first chick anyway? If she’s doing that shit, she’s _crazy_. Like, poke a hole in a condom crazy. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/255 "2013-04-12T16:53:49Z")
OK, so you’re doing something more along those lines (i.e., what **Diosa** posted) then? That makes a lot more sense. Somehow I’d gotten this series out of the conversation: MOL: I told dumb fuck “no” very clearly and he ignored it. Various: "Well, that’s to be expected because women say no and mean yes all the time, what’s a boy to do. " N,S: “Oh yeah, I do that all the time. But I never have any trouble with men getting confused.” Which somehow in my brain turned into you saying “I tell them “no” very clearly but I really mean “yes” but that shouldn’t cause anyone any problems or confusion.” In my defense, I’d missed your last few posts, where you clarified that dumbass in the OP wasn’t confused, just a jerk. You’re actually arguing that men are capable of telling the difference between playing and being serious, and that the whole “me just dumb penis, can’t be blamed” is a bullshit line used by jerks. I don’t see unclear signals in what **Diosa** is doing. Of course, I imagine there are some women who don’t do this well. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/256 "2013-04-12T16:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > But what they mean is “just talk me into saying yes, because that’s what I really want and I don’t want to seem like a slut.” Seems like someone over here is just rationalizing asshole behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/257 "2013-04-12T16:57:27Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > I don’t see unclear signals in what **Diosa** is doing. Of course, I imagine there are some women who don’t do this well. There are also plenty of socially awkward guys, just released from the warm embrace of their mother’s basement for the first time, who don’t read even the most obvious cues well. Anything short of hand on penis is a mystery to them, either through lack of experience or lack of ego. _Generally_, those super oblivious guys are the guys you flirt with in high school. A few make it into adulthood. And this thread. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/258 "2013-04-12T17:03:01Z")
I think you’re overestimating some of them. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/259 "2013-04-12T17:08:06Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > There are also plenty of socially awkward guys, just released from the warm embrace of their mother’s basement for the first time, who don’t read even the most obvious cues well. This is very true. Add to that the guys who rarely if ever get any kind of female attention, and quickly assume that kindness=attraction. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/260 "2013-04-12T17:21:32Z")
Yes, redtail, you read me now. Sorry to everyone for choppy communication, I’m on the go and texting from phone ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/261 "2013-04-12T17:25:01Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Yes, redtail, you read me now. Sorry to everyone for choppy communication, I’m on the go and texting from phone STOP TEASING US, OK?! _helicopter dicks your way_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=14)