# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/262 "2013-04-12T17:29:56Z")
Also, the “doesn’t want to be thought of as a slut” rationale rings hollow. It’s nice for your ego, but the main issue seems to be that the woman in question does want sex, just not with you. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/263 "2013-04-12T17:36:12Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > Also, the “doesn’t want to be thought of as a slut” rationale rings hollow. It’s nice for your ego, but the main issue seems to be that the woman in question does want sex, just not with you. Or just doesn’t want sex _today_ with you. Maybe she didn’t have a chance to shave\*, maybe she’s bleeding like a slaughtered pig, maybe she’s just not feeling it because her horoscope said to be wary pole vaulting and, being overly cautious, she’s taking that one with a wide meaning. Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter why she’s saying no, that NO needs to be respected lest you risk falling victim to the all kinds of crazy scenarios I previously laid out. That’s the thing I don’t get about these arguments for persistence- a ‘not tonight’ means not\* tonight\*. Respect my wishes and maybe I’ll be down tomorrow. Don’t worry, we’ll let you know. \*Real talk: 9 /10 times, if I turn a guy I’m actually interested in down for sex, it’s because I forgot or didn’t have time to shave. Of course, if I’m not interested in the guy, I’m turning him down because, well, I’m not interested him. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/264 "2013-04-12T17:50:34Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > There’s nothing new under the sun. Excerpt from _Pride and Prejudice_: > > Him: “When I do myself the honour of speaking to you next on the subject, I shall hope to receive a more favourable answer than you have now given me; though I am far from accusing you of cruelty at present, because I know it to be the established custom of your sex to reject a man on the first application, and perhaps you have even now said as much to encourage my suit as would be consistent with the true delicacy of the female character.” > > Her: “Really, Mr. Collins,” cried Elizabeth with some warmth, “you puzzle me exceedingly. If what I have hitherto said can appear to you in the form of encouragement, I know not how to express my refusal in such a way as to convince you of its being one.” > > Him: “You must give me leave to flatter myself, my dear cousin, that your refusal of my addresses is merely words of course.” “Now are you going to let me into your skirt, underskirt, bustle, petticoat, slip and drawers, or what?” ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/265 "2013-04-12T17:53:16Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > I hate to rain on your PROSTITUTION MAY BE THE ANSWER parade but prostitution is **legal** in more than 50% of the counties in Nevada and rapes still occur every day. It’s not legal in the major cities but there are legal brothels just outside of Reno and Carson City and a few within a 40ish minute drive of Las Vegas. Less prostitutes are being raped because they’re generally working in a controlled and safe environment, but statistics aren’t showing that the general population of women are any safer from rapists due to your magic bullet fantasy of prostitution. So maybe you might consider finding a different virtual shovel to use to dig yourself deeper in that hole of ridiculousness you’ve created in this thread. Unreal. > > Absolute perfection. Quoting entire passage again for awesomeness. See, is that really necessary? What have I said so far that is so offensive? I am in _ **full agreement** _ that men who try to coerce, intimidate or rape women into sex are abhorrent. I agree with others who have said that we should educate people on appropriate sexual conduct and that it is probably one of the most effective tools at our disposal. “No means no.” I agree. Guy in the OP is bad. How many times must I say this? I am only offering a counter perspective and somehow I’m the bad guy. I’d like to look past the actions themselves and question what drives somebody to do that in the first place. Yeah, prostitution is legal in a few counties in Nevada out of the entire U.S. Big deal. Sorry, but I find that entirely inconsequential to the debate. Honestly, I am only half serious about the idea. I am only throwing it out there and I can take it or leave it. From what I’ve gathered, it is a very complex issue with good sides to both points. [Top 10 Pro’s and Con’s: Legal Prostitution.](http://prostitution.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000115) From the article… > [@](#): > > PRO: “It is estimated that if prostitution were legalized in the United States, the rape rate would decrease by roughly 25% for a decrease of approximately 25,000 rapes per year…” > > Kirby R. Cundiff, PhD > Associate Professor of Finance at Northeastern State University > “Prostitution and Sex Crimes” > Apr. 8, 2004 [Intelligence Squared Debate: It’s wrong to pay for sex.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uT38_pRxHo) Again, feel free to criticize my views if you wish, but please offer your own solutions beyond what is already universally agreed upon. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/266 "2013-04-12T18:12:14Z")
Somewhere along the line some guys are getting this idea that persistence will pay off. I’m not completely sure I understand why they would think this behavior is okay. Some theories: -Some guys associate persistence with masculinity (personally I equate _not having to beg and cajole strange women for sex_ with masculinity). To give up/back off makes then feel emasculated, so they persist. -Guys who are with women that are very passive. This is what causes the accusations of ‘mixed messages’ to start flying. Maybe they were sexually involved with women that were themselves wishy-washy, the guy gets it into his head that ‘No’ isn’t absolute, and can be negotiated. -Guys that are just desperate and selfish, dont really care about her feelings, and figure they dont have anything to lose by being pushy about sex. I agree this kind of thing needs to be taught in schools. We make a lot of effort to try and empower women (stuff about not letting their partner bully them into sex, protecting themselves from potential abuse, etc). However, comparatively little is taught to young men. This discrepency leads the dim bulbs among them to see things in the extremes ( From “I’m afraid of making moves a girl I like because she’ll think I’m some rapist” to “I can talk a woman into having sex with me, she says no now but will change her mind!” Extremes). While smarter guys can connect the dots and figure out how to respect a woman’s boundaries, there are plenty who struggle to understand this (or believe stuff that is plain wrong). I wonder if a curriculum could be developed to help guys be less creepy by showing how to pick up on signals. Like I said, we teach women on how to NOT be victimized, but dont teach men to NOT be victimizers. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/267 "2013-04-12T18:23:11Z")
Gary Ridgway killed at least 48 prostitutes because he didn’t want to pay for sex. From this CNN interview: [http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0402/18/lkl.00.html](http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0402/18/lkl.00.html) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you want to kill them? RIDGWAY: I was mad at women and prostitutes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why? RIDGWAY: Because I didn’t – didn’t want to pay for sex. **panacionne** , you’re conflating two issues which really aren’t related. Not all pushy assholes are rapists, and not all clueless internet jockeys who obey PUA and Hollywood directives to persist despite clear opposition are rapists. The problem we’re discussing here isn’t how to prevent rape; we’re bitching about dates who act in favor of some mythical rumor that women want to be coerced into sex and who don’t respect the word no. You want solutions to the thankfully rare problem described in the OP? We can either stop extended common courtesy to men lest they mistake kindness for an offer of sex and view them all collectively as helpless, testes-driven drones of ill-intent. Or we can promote a dialogue which encourages speaking wants and expectations clearly and respecting the word no. I prefer the latter approach, but anything’s better than \*your \*solution of rewarding potential rapists with prostitution. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/268 "2013-04-12T18:27:04Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > Seems like someone over here is just rationalizing asshole behaviour. Not rationalizing it. Just reporting what I’ve seen many, many times. I personally have no desire to play games with people and much prefer people who are straight forward. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/269 "2013-04-12T18:28:13Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > So, what would you rather do: > > Force yourself on a woman on the off chance she’s one of those crazy bitches playing some weird game because it may lead to you putting your dick in someone. . . risking maybe forcing yourself on a woman whose no definitely means no, opening yourself up to a bad reputation or rape accusations? > > Or just not forcing yourself on anybody and only dating women whose words mean what the rest of our words mean? > > Yet another pro tip: why would you want to stick your dick in the first chick anyway? If she’s doing that shit, she’s _crazy_. Like, poke a hole in a condom crazy. Absolutely no forcing anything ever. The situation I am referring to is when the girl says “no” at the bar, but then invites you over anyway and then sleeps with you. And as for crazy, most guys drunk in a bar will never see the girl again so they could care less. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/270 "2013-04-12T18:50:27Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Absolutely no forcing anything ever. The situation I am referring to is when the girl says “no” at the bar, but then invites you over anyway and then sleeps with you. > > And as for crazy, most guys drunk in a bar will never see the girl again so they could care less. Couldn’t. And I see you’ve constructed your own scenario, but let’s counter with another: a woman is out on a date with a man, the bar is closing. He walks her home, because he’s a nice guy like that. At some point it starts violently raining in the bitter, freezing way that only happens in a midwestern city, say Chicago. Trying not to be an awful person, the woman suggests that the man can wait upstairs for his cab, so as not to catch his death standing in the cold, wet, dark street. She also tells him that on no uncertain terms, there will be no sex, no hanky panky, no foolin’ around, this isn’t a guise to ride his dick, etc. Gentleman says he understands completely and comes up. Dude then proceeds to assume her no was just a yes that needed persuading, and attempts to awkwardly feel her up over her countless protests to the contrary. What would you do in that situation, friend? Just a hypothetical I came up with, no biggie. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/271 "2013-04-12T18:59:32Z")
Yes, we absolutely do need to be teaching this stuff. Both in school and at home. Stop expecting kids to learn by osmosis. [Read this.](http://accidentaldevotional.com/2013/03/19/the-day-i-taught-how-not-to-rape/) I knew a woman way back in the late 80s. She was complaining about a guy that wouldn’t take no for an answer (about dating, not actual sex). She’d done everything she could think of and just couldn’t get rid of him. She started telling me about the mean, horrible behaviour she’d resorted to in her efforts to ditch this dude. Like not returning his phone calls for _several days_! Now, she was only about 21 and raised under the old “girls must be always be nice, can’t upset or disappoint anyone” bullshit, so you have to cut her some slack. But I suspect that sort of thing still goes on more often than we’d like to believe. We’ve seriously made a fucked-up mess of this whole thing, really. The only way out that I can see is if we start teaching our kids to actually communicate clearly on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/272 "2013-04-12T19:01:21Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Couldn’t. > > And I see you’ve constructed your own scenario, but let’s counter with another: a woman is out on a date with a man, the bar is closing. He walks her home, because he’s a nice guy like that. At some point it starts violently raining in the bitter, freezing way that only happens in a midwestern city, say Chicago. Trying not to be an awful person, the woman suggests that the man can wait upstairs for his cab, so as not to catch his death standing in the cold, wet, dark street. She also tells him that on no uncertain terms, there will be no sex, no hanky panky, no foolin’ around, this isn’t a guise to ride his dick, etc. Gentleman says he understands completely and comes up. Dude then proceeds to assume her no was just a yes that needed persuading, and attempts to awkwardly feel her up over her countless protests to the contrary. > > What would you do in that situation, friend? Just a hypothetical I came up with, no biggie. I would say thanks but not go upstairs. To go to her apartment would just look lame and desperate. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/273 "2013-04-12T19:18:25Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > What would you do in that situation, friend? Just a hypothetical I came up with, no biggie. You crack me up, Diosa. I would like to have your babies. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/274 "2013-04-12T19:28:14Z")
For the record, I never defended the guy. He was a total douche. MOL showed questionable judgment inviting him to her apartment, but that doesn’t excuse his behavior. Frankly she came across like a pushover, and not “mean old lady” at all. My point is that plenty of women \*do \*send mixed signals and say no when they mean maybe, and that’s what this dumbass was hoping for. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/275 "2013-04-12T19:31:05Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Not rationalizing it. Just reporting what I’ve seen many, many times. The key word here is ‘seen’. You didn’t ask. You assumed. Did you actually ask the women in question, and did they actually tell you that was what they were thinking? So far, not a single woman agrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/276 "2013-04-12T19:33:02Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > I agree this kind of thing needs to be taught in schools. We make a lot of effort to try and empower women (stuff about not letting their partner bully them into sex, protecting themselves from potential abuse, etc). However, comparatively little is taught to young men. This discrepency leads the dim bulbs among them to see things in the extremes ( From “I’m afraid of making moves a girl I like because she’ll think I’m some rapist” to “I can talk a woman into having sex with me, she says no now but will change her mind!” Extremes). While smarter guys can connect the dots and figure out how to respect a woman’s boundaries, there are plenty who struggle to understand this (or believe stuff that is plain wrong). > > I wonder if a curriculum could be developed to help guys be less creepy by showing how to pick up on signals. Like I said, we teach women on how to NOT be victimized, but dont teach men to NOT be victimizers. Man, this so hard. Women throughout their lives are taught how to avoid shady situations and are repeatedly schooled on building confidence and protecting themselves. During freshman orientation, there were a lot of “You’re in college now, finally away from your parents. Here is how not to be stupid about sex” discussions that primarily focused on how women can avoid danger. If memory serves (and it’s entirely possible that it does not; this was over a decade ago) the only things that addressed how men should behave were the “No means no” bit and a brief segment about why you shouldn’t sleep with a girl who is super drunk. Women were told to travel in packs, to guard their drinks, to let a friend know where they are if going out alone with a male, how to do this, how to do that. I obviously think it’s a good idea to teach women how to protect themselves, but why so lopsided? There are clearly men around who fancy themselves to be intelligent adults who _don’t_ get that no is no, period. Somehow in their minds it’s still okay to pursue a woman who has flatly rejected them, so long as they don’t sexually assault her, because, you know, bitches me sayin’ one thing but really mean “Penis your way through me.” Whatever, dude. Back off. Boys need to be taught this the same way girls are taught we don’t have to have sex with our horny bf in high school just because he wants it. Sorry if I started the jillionth installment of Rape Week here. I was just really effing pissed, and like all angry people, I decided to complain about it on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/277 "2013-04-12T19:34:21Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > I would say thanks but not go upstairs. To go to her apartment would just look lame and desperate. It’s lame and desperate to go up and chit chat while you wait for the cab?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/278 "2013-04-12T19:39:29Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > The key word here is ‘seen’. You didn’t ask. You assumed. Did you actually ask the women in question, and did they actually tell you that was what they were thinking? So far, not a single woman agrees with you. Huh? Not a single woman here agrees that me and/or many males I know have experienced the situation I described? ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/279 "2013-04-12T19:40:39Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > It’s lame and desperate to go up and chit chat while you wait for the cab?😕 After getting the spiel that she was not interested in me and was only being nice, I would have no desire to wait in her apartment. I would have called a cab on my own. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/280 "2013-04-12T19:46:02Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Huh? Not a single woman here agrees that me and/or many males I know have experienced the situation I described? You seem convinced to know what the women were thinking, without having asked. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/281 "2013-04-12T19:47:33Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > You seem convinced to know what the women were thinking, without having asked. I was talking about women that I have known and male friends have known. I have no idea about any of the women on this board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=15)