# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/502 "2013-04-13T21:57:44Z")
Admittedly I’ve only read the first and the last page of this behemoth but I’m sure the same hashed and rehashed arguments were bandied about with minor twists to it. That being said, there is some interesting stuff here and just to leave a few comments (in order of relevance): - Not to put words into MOL’s mouth, but I don’t think she intended this to be the forum on sexual assault but rather just a rant about an idiot doing idiot things. It’s not fair to make analogies that span the entire spectrum of unwanted sexual advances and frankly it a) demonizes men and b) diminishes the magnitude of the more illicit behaviors. - Guys need to be told when because (theoretically) women hold the keys. For the most part women decide who gets to have sex when and where. Guys have to be told no because the limiting reagent in this sexual chemistry is with the woman. The man will take it as far as he’s allowed and women are the ones dictating how far it should go. Problems arise in reconciling the expectations but that just reinforces the need for women to be strong, vocal, and actualized as Nzinga and others have alluded to. Acquiescing only snowballs the problem. - The handicapped analogy is a fascinating one. I’m still not sure why Ambivalid isn’t admitting fault here other than just sheer vanity. The parallels are striking. A statute is broken but with no authorities present and punishment is a tenuous and iffy process. In the absence of justice, should the wronged take the law into his/her own hands and confront the behavior or should he/she play the odds of safety and just submit? The analogy strains a bit here because a man is much more likely to take things sexually a bridge too far than haul off and punch a handicapped guy (sad but true). However, it’s not stretched so far that a person would defend one action and condemn the other. - Anonymous User, while I’m sure you think the thread is interesting and you did take a posting sabbatical, nobody else cares enough to warrant you posting. Even if you have something to add to the conversation (which as a HS sophomore is doubtful) this is probably one conversation you should stick to the sidelines on. Emotions run high in threads of this nature and the usual suspects involved are among the most impassioned posters on the SDMB. - Amelia999, welcome to the boards. I hope you stay. Now dial down the narcissism. Just because someone ignored your post once, twice, or even three times… just because someone said something that you disagree with… just because someone said something that you know to be factually incorrect doesn’t mean you should throw a hissy fit and threaten to leave. Maybe your great intellect is being unappreciated. However, it’s pretty much just how message boards work. That said, as per your request, my responses to your posts would include: - I’m unfamiliar with the term “farrow” much less in relation to impotence. - Women in the 30’s-50’s were treated with much more disrespect as they are now. - Would you want to bring back the idea of slut shaming: making a woman feel ashamed or embarrassed for having a sexual appetite as a good thing? Perhaps help decrease the number of slut girls out there? If so, your new friendship with Troppus may be a short lived one. - Brush up on your grammar. It may only be the internet but people on this board are fanatics about grammar. You will be roundly ignored if you continue to use ellipses in place of periods, have questionable capitalization, write in run on sentences, write incoherently, and (imo most importantly) not attribute who you’re replying to in your posts. The indefinite “you” only makes sense to you. I have no idea who you’re raving against seeing as how I am not you. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/503 "2013-04-13T22:04:57Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Saying that it’s only possible for these offenses to occur when women aren’t cautious enough is taking the blame off the assholes who actually committed the offenses. > [@zweisamkeit](#): > > **Ambivalid** , assuming you’re on the up and up and are genuinely confused as to why people are bringing up handicapped parking spaces and the like, lemme help you. > > Though there have been great advances in the past century-ish, women still face sexism, discrimination and the like, yes? And all other things being equal\*, women face more of those than men? > > Second, would you agree that people with disabilities, as a group, face challenges and discrimination that those without disabilities never need to worry about? I’d hope so. > > So now, think about how the kind of advice you’ve given here would come across to, say, a person who uses a wheelchair and deals with assholes who park in handicapped spot out of laziness: > > Your advice/attitude boils down to “yeah, that shit is wrong and sucks. Hopefully one day we’ll live in a world where assholes who do that don’t exist. But until that happens, just accept that you’re limited in what you can do.” > > _That’s_ why people are snarking about handicapped spaces, dude. Your advice would apply to YOU when you encounter a handicapped spot stealer (or a gym not having equipment you can use, or whatever) just as much as it would to women meeting men. Yet, as you have shown many times on this board, you refuse to accept that bullshit and will directly confront spot stealers and call them on their shit. By your own advice, that’s not wise (you could get assaulted or harassed by the asshole) and you should just park in a standard spot and wistfully hope for the day those assholes don’t exist. > > So why is it different for women who just want to be able to go out and live their lives without either risking assault/harassment or limiting their perfectly legal and normal activities to a ridiculous extent? > > - Meaning: compare a man and a woman of the same race, class background, education, etc. etc. Don’t compare, say, Natalie Portman (daughter of a doctor and artist, Harvard-educated, incredibly gorgeous successful actress) with like, a mentally ill homeless Vietnam vet from a poor family who got drafted out of high school). Except accepting the illegal parking in handicapped sections isn’t about personal safety and one’s own life. Accepting the fact that dangerous men exist out in the world _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/504 "2013-04-13T22:29:11Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Except accepting the illegal parking in handicapped sections isn’t about personal safety and one’s own life. Accepting the fact that dangerous men exist out in the world _is_. And there are many ways of “not accepting” such illegal behavior short of a face-to-face confrontation with the offender. Calling the police and reporting the vehicle is one. Photographing the vehicle and license plate, etc. is another. And even alerting the management of the business is a possible way of ‘not accepting’ violations of handicap parking without risking one’s personal safety in any way. And in more long-term aspects, working to affect legislation supporting stronger disability rights also expresses this sentiment. So in a way I agree with the comparisons. For the sake of this argument, yes, the face-to-face confrontations with illegal parkers isn’t the safest behavior on my part. It is not the only avenue for fighting such behavior, however, as I’ve already pointed out. I don’t either have to “wistfully hope for the day of change” or come face to face with each and every driver I see parking illegally. I can fight to make that change happen _and_ stay safe at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/505 "2013-04-13T22:38:09Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > - Anonymous User,[…]Even if you have something to add to the conversation (which as a HS sophomore is doubtful) this is probably one conversation you should stick to the sidelines on. Will do. You are right; I don’t really have much more to add to the thread except for advocating a position, which I did here: > [@Anonymous User](#): > > Nothing here to learn except the definition of the term “no”, which I’ve known since I was a little kid anyway. > > Honestly, I don’t think the OP did anything wrong. All she did was be nice and let him into the apartment so he didn’t get wet in the rain. She had already made it clear that she didn’t want to go any further. I don’t even know why this is up for debate. Pointless nitpick: I am a freshman, not a sophomore by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/506 "2013-04-13T23:08:13Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Is English your first language? The word “no” isn’t a signal, isn’t debatable, unclear, and has only one meaning. Would you like a cup of tea? No? You’re sure? I’m making one. No problem, how do you take it? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/507 "2013-04-13T23:23:05Z")
> [@Beastly\_Rotter](#): > > Would you like a cup of tea? No? You’re sure? I’m making one. No problem, how do you take it? I’m sure your accustomed to taking your tea alone. I’ll give you some privacy. ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/508 "2013-04-13T23:37:55Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’m sure your accustomed to taking your tea alone. I’ll give you some privacy. More cake, dear? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/509 "2013-04-13T23:47:41Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > - Anonymous User, while I’m sure you think the thread is interesting and you did take a posting sabbatical, nobody else cares enough to warrant you posting. Even if you have something to add to the conversation (which as a HS sophomore is doubtful) this is probably one conversation you should stick to the sidelines on. Well, I for one am glad he posted. I don’t subscribe to the idea that just because someone is young and inexperienced they have nothing of value to say. Furthermore, the fact that he is an adolescent is especially important, given that he is going to be exposed to more and more of these situations as he goes through high school. **Anonymous** is among the next generation of men who will either accept ‘‘No’’ for an answer or disrespect women. If participating facilitates his ability to get the message or to communicate that message to other guys his age, I’m all for it. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/510 "2013-04-13T23:58:47Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Except accepting the illegal parking in handicapped sections isn’t about personal safety and one’s own life. **Ambivalid** , I think we can all agree that if there is anything that you are known for, it is the times that you decided it would be a good idea to wait by the car of someone who seemed to be parked illegally in a handicapped parking space with the intention of personally confronting the offender when they came to retrieve their vehicle. I’m sorry, but that is considerably more likely to lead to trouble than inviting a man into your apartment. Hell, I’ve invited _shitloads_ of strange men into my apartment without getting raped, molested, or banned from a gym. If that makes me incautious, it makes you _a complete moron._ Are you a moron, **Ambivalid**? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/511 "2013-04-14T00:01:10Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Yes, this is all her fault. What is this nonsense?? You are acting as if the man brutalized her, raped her, and then said that she led him on, and was begging for a taste of a real man. She played the dumbass, and thinks that by saying “I know, I know…” that this makes her a victim, or by inviting a man into her small apartment, she made clear for him to act as if he were alone in a public setting. Listen, if the OP had wanted to be clear, she should have called a taxi from her cellphone before they even left the vehicle. She sent out conflicting signals. Yes. No. Separately, they are clear. Combined, they are unclear. Score: MeanOldLady, 0. Dense date, 0. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/512 "2013-04-14T00:19:32Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > She sent out conflicting signals. Yes. No. Separately, they are clear. Combined, they are unclear. > > Score: MeanOldLady, 0. Dense date, 0. You “signals” guys are a hoot. Acting like we’re some endangered non-verbal avian species with complicated markings and exotic, choreographed courtship displays. Hey, humor me, wouldja? What subtle, complex, intricate and inscrutable “signals” do you fellas practice when you wanna get some? I’m afraid if I find myself single again that I’ll overlook some esoteric hint of romantic interest or misinterpret a fidget, a sneeze, or a facial tick as the go-ahead. Since I can’t trust your words at all. I mean, barring helicopter dick. Diosa already told us to watch for that one. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/513 "2013-04-14T00:20:17Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > What is this nonsense?? You are acting as if the man brutalized her, raped her, and then said that she led him on, and was begging for a taste of a real man. > > She played the dumbass, and thinks that by saying “I know, I know…” that this makes her a victim, or by inviting a man into her small apartment, she made clear for him to act as if he were alone in a public setting. > Listen, if the OP had wanted to be clear, she should have called a taxi from her cellphone before they even left the vehicle. She sent out conflicting signals. Yes. No. Separately, they are clear. Combined, they are unclear. > > Score: MeanOldLady, 0. Dense date, 0. you are both late and lame bonus! you’re also nearly incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/514 "2013-04-14T00:22:59Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Ugh. Look, I’m having conversations with adults who can speak respectfully to one another. Go away. LOL. Didn’t you just threaten to slink away butthurtedly because the mean words I said made you sad? Now you’re back with a fucktarded vengeance and telling me to leave my own thread? Confirmed: you are stupid. > [@handsomeharry](#): > > What is this nonsense?? You are acting as if the man brutalized her, raped her, and then said that she led him on, and was begging for a taste of a real man. > > She played the dumbass, and thinks that by saying “I know, I know…” that this makes her a victim, or by inviting a man into her small apartment, she made clear for him to act as if he were alone in a public setting. > Listen, if the OP had wanted to be clear, she should have called a taxi from her cellphone before they even left the vehicle. She sent out conflicting signals. Yes. No. Separately, they are clear. Combined, they are unclear. > > Score: MeanOldLady, 0. Dense date, 0. Can’t tell if serious. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/515 "2013-04-14T00:25:48Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Listen, if the OP had wanted to be clear, she should have called a taxi from her cellphone before they even left the vehicle. Given the total lack of a vehicle for them to leave, her calling a taxi from it would have signaled a psychotic break. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/516 "2013-04-14T00:41:32Z")
> [@colander](#): > > you are both late and lame > > bonus! you’re also nearly incoherent. I just hope he’s actually handsome, because he’s too stupid to date. Or wait…maybe he’s negging or playing dumb. hh, are you sending us signullz? ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/517 "2013-04-14T00:43:13Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I just hope he’s actually handsome, because he’s too stupid to date. > > Or wait…maybe he’s negging or playing dumb. hh, are you sending us signullz? my guess is that he is drunk and over 50 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/518 "2013-04-14T01:20:06Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > And there are many ways of “not accepting” such illegal behavior short of a face-to-face confrontation with the offender. Calling the police and reporting the vehicle is one. Photographing the vehicle and license plate, etc. is another. And even alerting the management of the business is a possible way of ‘not accepting’ violations of handicap parking without risking one’s personal safety in any way. And in more long-term aspects, working to affect legislation supporting stronger disability rights also expresses this sentiment. > > So in a way I agree with the comparisons. For the sake of this argument, yes, the face-to-face confrontations with illegal parkers isn’t the safest behavior on my part. It is not the only avenue for fighting such behavior, however, as I’ve already pointed out. I don’t either have to “wistfully hope for the day of change” or come face to face with each and every driver I see parking illegally. I can fight to make that change happen _and_ stay safe at the same time. But you have directly confronted people, yes? Blocked them in while waiting on the cops? If someone had jumped out of the car and beaten the shit out of you, and you vented about it here, would you have considered it appropriate for people to respond with"Well, you shouldn’t have done that"? In any other arena, when people stand up for their rights and get hurt, they are lauded as heroes. When it comes to women and sexual violence, they are stupid and careless and therefore deserve no sympathy. That said, I do think you and many others in this thread are trying to actually talk about the issue, and the “You’re either with us or a rapist” rhetoric is not helping. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/519 "2013-04-14T01:35:59Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > That said, I do think you and many others in this thread are trying to actually talk about the issue, and the “You’re either with us or a rapist” rhetoric is not helping. I wouldn’t say we’re taking it quite to that extreme, but what should we call someone who doesn’t take no for an answer and persists with sexual advances in the face of being told no — _repeatedly_? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/520 "2013-04-14T01:57:43Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > I wouldn’t say we’re taking it quite to that extreme, but what should we call someone who doesn’t take no for an answer and persists with sexual advances in the face of being told no — _repeatedly_? My point is that someone saying “Sometimes relationships and communication get really fucked up” is not the same as saying “If she says no, she likely means yes, just keep pushing”. I mean, on one extreme we certainly have assholes who think that no means maybe until she’s actually called the cops. Everyday I see little pregnant 15 year olds that I feel confident had no real understanding that they even had the RIGHT to say no to the 17 year old boyfriend that “chose” them, and that’s something fouler than rape. I 100% agree that we have a world of assholes that think that if they can get her to say “yes”, it means it’s not rape, and that means it’s ok, because it’s not illegal: guys that wouldn’t cajole their buddy into spending $20 he didn’t want to spend because it would be a dick move think that pulling out all the stops to cajole a woman into sex is just proving what a man they are. I agree with all that. But relationships are fucking complicated, and some people in this thread have tried to talk about that, only to be shut down and lumped in with rapists. That’s ugly. The other extreme is that any sexual attraction to a women is inherently disrespectful, and that sexually desiring a woman diminishes her, and so you have to separate the world into “women I respect” and "women I want to fuck’. That’s not so good for gender relationships either. No means no, but there’s often no clear no or yes, and it’s ok to be confused about what to do in that space of ambiguity. And the “tard” thing really pisses me off. You know who really get sexually victimized in this world? The developmentally delayed. To go off about “tard” this and “tard” that in this context is in poor taste. It’s especially in poor taste to keep going on about it after being called on it by a guy whose daughter has developmental issues and who, I suspect, lives daily with the reality that he is pretty fucking helpless to be sure she’s properly protected in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/521 "2013-04-14T02:14:54Z")
I can’t think of a better reason than to use heated language than with posters who not only insist that _no doesn’t mean no_, but also confess to coercing women who told them _no_. Of course, the tales are just as likely to be pure fantasy, as every internet lothario thinks he’s learned the skills to drive women wild online, but just in case some up-and-coming internet pick-up artists are reading along, someone needs to say NO MEANS NO loudly and apparently, repetitively. I encouraged \*\*Anonymous User \*\*to start a respectful discussion of complex dating matters, but this particular example of consent/denial gone sideways seems to operating at the level it deserves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=27)