# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/562 "2013-04-14T14:12:11Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > What horrible pains are you suffering by not letting strange men into your home at night, at least when you don’t want sex? With all due respect, that isn’t your judgment to make. Women should be able to decide what’s worth it and what’s not on our own terms, without someone telling us what we should and should not be doing. For me? Not worth it. But I’ll stand by any woman’s right to make different choices than I do. You asked earlier, ''What is the alternative?" I dunno, for a start, maybe for every college lecture women have to sit through about how to not get raped, men have to sit through one about how not to be a rapist? That would be a start. And I think it’s wrong to assume that potential rapists wouldn’t listen, because I doubt half the date rapists out there have any clue what they’re doing is rape. Because they think this business about ‘‘mixed signals’’ is legitimate, that is normal to them and the only way they are going to learn otherwise is if someone beats them over the head with it a few hundred times. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/563 "2013-04-14T14:38:11Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Of course “No means no” and all men should be advised to respect such words. When people are advised to act cautiously (and it’s not just women but people in general), it is in recognition of the fact that some men simply won’t respect those words. And if people hear such advice so often then why does it happen? Your analogy falls apart because if the woman (or whoever) were to act cautiously and _not_ invite someone into their home that they didn’t know or want sex with, then no situation would have the possibility to occur. Period. However, as a large black man, even behaving in the most respectful and cautious manner may not prevent a possible run-in with a police officer who may “have it out” for you. I’m late to addressing this because I just caught it - but it still occurs. Happened to me as a senior in high school. I wanted to get dropped off after a date. I didn’t want sex, I didn’t want to fool around. I found myself “parked” two miles from my house with “Mr. Hands” who promptly whipped out his penis at one in the morning and demanded a blow job to get me home. I walked home, and thank god, he didn’t follow me, it was only two miles, and it was a safe two miles, my parents lived in the middle nowhere (well, actually, the edge of no where) and I didn’t see another car. I’ve also been pushed against the wall in a corner of a bar to get dry humped by a guy I might have known his first name after dancing with him - once. If anyone thinks that not letting a guy into your apartment after a date will keep you from being sexually assaulted, they haven’t been young, cute and female and presented with a guy whose sense of entitlement to sexual satisfaction is larger than his ability to be a decent human being. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/564 "2013-04-14T14:48:21Z")
By the way, upshot of these events - I’ve been married twenty years, but back when. Don’t dance with strange guys in bars - stick with your girlfriends (or male friends you trust). Buddy to the bathroom. When going on a first date, meet them somewhere with your own transportation and leave, using your own transportation. And for this behavior, I was often called a bitch and had endless “nice guys” whine at me about how I should “give them a chance.” Also, that I must only like to date “bad boys.” ---
**Author:** ![Patience\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@Patience\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patience_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/565 "2013-04-14T14:51:48Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > By the way, upshot of these events - I’ve been married twenty years, but back when. > > Don’t dance with strange guys in bars - stick with your girlfriends (or male friends you trust). Buddy to the bathroom. > > When going on a first date, meet them somewhere with your own transportation and leave, using your own transportation. > > And for this behavior, I was often called a bitch and had endless “nice guys” whine at me about how I should “give them a chance.” Also, that I must only like to date “bad boys.” Yep. If you take precautions, you’re a paranoid bitch who thinks every man is a rapist. If you’re more open and trusting, then it’s your fault if you get assaulted. You can’t win. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/566 "2013-04-14T14:57:16Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > What horrible pains are you suffering by not letting strange men into your home at night, at least when you don’t want sex? > [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > With all due respect, that isn’t your judgment to make. Women should be able to decide what’s worth it and what’s not on our own terms, without someone telling us what we should and should not be doing. > > For me? Not worth it. But I’ll stand by any woman’s right to make different choices than I do. While I’m sure there are circumstances where it would be reasonable for a woman to allow a strange man into her home at night – if you’re far enough north, a late afternoon appointment with the cable guy might be after sunset – I would like to point out that this “letting strange men into your home at night” thing is a straw man that **Ambivalid** made up. He was replying to a post where I said: > [@Lamia](#): > > If this solution doesn’t strike you as reasonable, practical, and convenient, then perhaps you could rethink your advice to women about how we could avoid unwanted sexual advances by **never allowing anyone into our homes** unless we intend to have sex with them: (emphasis added) See, nothing about “strange men” or “at night”. The situation described in the OP was at night but did not involve **MeanOldLady** inviting a strange man into her house either, he was someone she knew and had just been on a date with. This is a long thread and I don’t have time to completely re-read it, but I don’t think anyone has at any point suggested it would be a good idea in general for women to invite strange men into their homes at night. **Ambivalid** is simply a liar who’s trying to weasel out of responsibility for his own words, which again were: > [@Ambivalid](#): > > if the woman (or whoever) were to act cautiously and _not_ invite someone into their home that they didn’t know or want sex with, then no situation would have the possibility to occur. Period. But while he’s perfectly happy to suggest that in order to avoid unpleasant situations women should severely restrict their own freedom and refrain from an activity (inviting a guest into one’s home) that’s a normal part of everyday life for most people, he didn’t take kindly to my modest proposal that he could avoid unpleasant situations by severely restricting his own freedom and refraining from an activity (driving) that’s a normal part of everyday life for most people. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/567 "2013-04-14T14:58:27Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The trouble with the helicopter dick gambit is you have to keep making the noise the whole time. whup whup whup whup If that turkey Less Nessman could pull it off live on radio anybody can. Just sayin. I wonder how many people will even get that. Its a twofer actually. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/568 "2013-04-14T17:12:20Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I didn’t have a car until I was 26 years old, and only got one then because my new job required me to make trips out of town. It’s quite possible to lead a productive, fulfilling life without a motor vehicle. It’s certainly easier than never allowing anyone into your home unless you intend to have sex with them, which was the actual advice you offered. You’ve now changed that to “strange men” and “at night”, but that’s not what you said before. > > A bit of a difference from what you actually said. > > Here, again, is the post that I have been referring to: > This is the third time I’ve quoted these exact words back to you. They still say the same thing, and your attempts to claim otherwise aren’t fooling me. The word “night” does not appear there, or even “man”. You don’t even say this rule applies only to people the woman doesn’t know, but people she doesn’t know OR does not want to have sex with. I don’t want to have sex with my mother, my best friend, or my elderly landlady, yet I’ve invited all of them into my home. I guess I’m just lucky none of them took it the wrong way! > > Oh yeah, and describing the same incident this way: > and this way: > within a half hour period doesn’t exactly help your credibility either. Do you seriously not understand that even if you change your story we can still go back and read what you originally wrote? Those are two completely separate incidents in two completely different locations. I wish YOU WOULD go back and read what I originally wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/569 "2013-04-14T17:20:30Z")
Personally, I would rather be thought of as a ‘bitch’ by “nice guys” than put myself in a situation where I feel unsafe. But that’s my own decision. I don’t think its a lose-lose situation because if I was a woman on a date, and didn’t care for the guy (or in hindsight, the guy acted like an asshole) I shouldn’t be lamenting that he would think me frigid for not letting him in. But I will also concede that again, that’s my opinion. It really sucks that women go through all this bullshit, and the more I hear about it the happier I am to be a guy. I used to think how it sucked being the one who always was expected to be the initiator and have to evaluate (based on words, body language, etc) whether or not what I am doing is appropriate for the situation. But after reading this thread, I realized that myself, and every other straight guy out there has it easy in comparison. I mean, I’ve never had unwanted sexual advances from a woman on a date. I’ve never been in a car and enjoyed a nice platonic evening with a woman only to have her pull her skirt up and push my head down when I didn’t want to do that. Nor have I been physically cornered by a woman 50% larger and stronger than me in a nightclub and dry humped. While the woman was always seen as the ‘gatekeeper’ for sexual contact I was never in a position where I felt in phsyical peril. The worst that ever happened to me was being too eager to invite a woman over to my apartment and having her end up stealing some of my stuff while I was asleep. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/570 "2013-04-14T17:23:39Z")
It seems rather foolish for a woman to invite a man she isn’t fully acquainted with into her home. Not to mention down right dangerous. If you don’t know/trust him well enough to feel safe with the man (IE, you knew he wouldn’t abuse your trust), you never should have let him in your front door. “No” never stopped a deranged killer with a gun. I’m glad you weren’t physically hurt. But I still see what you did as careless. The guy was a dick. You’re just lucky he wasn’t a violent dick. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/571 "2013-04-14T17:31:56Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > It seems rather foolish for a woman to invite a man she isn’t fully acquainted with into her home. Not to mention down right dangerous. If you don’t know/trust him well enough to feel safe with the man (IE, you knew he wouldn’t abuse your trust), you never should have let him in your front door. I’mma stop you right here. We have gone over a couple things on several occasions. One, that acquaintance rape is far more common than stranger rape. This guy was at this point, an acquaintance. The part I’m going to break down for you right now is this little snippet right here: “If you don’t know/trust him well enough to feel safe with the man (IE, you knew he wouldn’t abuse your trust), you never should have let him in your front door.” That’s where I have a problem. See, the thing is, you can go on a date with a guy. Feel “safe” with him, because until someone does something untoward, the default setting is going to be “safe” unless they give you a reason to not feel safe. Have normal nice conversations with him, set expectations that he acknowledges and repeats back to you, and then all of a sudden he does something like _not leave when you ask him to_, and now you’ve crossed the threshold from “you feel safe with him” to “now you don’t feel safe anymore”. You never know when ANYBODY will abuse your trust. _That’s how they abuse it_. If you thought someone was going to abuse your trust you wouldn’t trust them, right? This idea that “If you knew _in advance of him abusing your trust_ that he was going to abuse your trust, well, you shouldn’t have let him in!” is pretty dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/572 "2013-04-14T17:34:14Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > It seems rather foolish for a woman to invite a man she isn’t fully acquainted with into her home. What’s the process for full acquaintanceship? ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/573 "2013-04-14T17:34:22Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Those are two completely separate incidents in two completely different locations. thank you for reminding me that you have pulled this shit on at least two separate occasions. it definitely makes you seem less reckless and maniacal! why, heck! do you do quinceaneras?? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/574 "2013-04-14T17:36:52Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > What’s the process for full acquaintanceship? Marriage, ideally. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/575 "2013-04-14T17:46:16Z")
I wish there was a better answer than simply keep your door locked. But seriously, if you’re a single woman, don’t let strangers in your home, no matter how hard it’s raining. I’m not placing blame in the OP in this matter. The guy was clearly a dick, and he carries all the fault. But still, letting a stranger in your home is dangerous under the best circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/576 "2013-04-14T17:46:35Z")
> [@morgenstern](#): > > i wish there was a better answer than simply keep your door locked. But seriously, if your’re a single woman, don’t let strangers in your home, no matter how hard it’s raining. I’m not placing blame in the op in this matter. The guy was clearly a dick, and he carries all the fault. > But still, letting a stranger in your home is dangerous under the best circumstances. He was not a stranger. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/577 "2013-04-14T17:48:48Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > he carries all the fault. > But still Really puts a bow on the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/578 "2013-04-14T17:49:51Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > He was not a stranger. Two dates was it? And that’s not a stranger? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/579 "2013-04-14T17:52:47Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > You should have known better than to invite him up to your apartment. Regardless of your insistence of not wanting to mislead, that is going to be exactly what happens if a woman invites a man up to her place after a date when she has no interest in him. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > I’m not saying that at all. It’s not her fault that this guy tried to touch her and kiss her and act completely inappropriately; not at all. But considering the context, she should have anticipated some mixing of signals when inviting a man up to her place at night after a date. Lots of men will ignore any and all red lights and focus on any _possible_ glimmer of hope and interpret that as a clear signal that they are “good to go”. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > Let me clarify my opinions on the matter a bit. No, I don’t blame **MOL** for any of this guy’s inappropriate behavior or put the onus on her. However, as the intelligent woman that she clearly is, she should already know that lots and lots of men out there lack whatever it is that would preclude them from seeking sex in wholly inappropriate contexts. Add to that the context of a late night, possible alcohol consumption and the easily willfully-misinterpreted action of being invited up to the woman’s apartment after a romantic date and this sounds like the script for a bad T.V. show. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > No, not _any_ man but with a man with whom you had just been on a non-platonic date it is going to be received as a ‘go ahead’ to _some_ asshole men. This is not debated, right? So the take away is to assume all men are this way until they show themselves to be otherwise. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > Not _never_. Just in certain contexts, such as late at night, after both have been drinking and it’s been a romantic date. _Then_ a woman should exercise some caution. A bit of a difference from what you are trying to paint. > [@Lamia](#): > > I didn’t have a car until I was 26 years old, and only got one then because my new job required me to make trips out of town. It’s quite possible to lead a productive, fulfilling life without a motor vehicle. It’s certainly easier than never allowing anyone into your home unless you intend to have sex with them, which was the actual advice you offered. You’ve now changed that to “strange men” and “at night”, but that’s not what you said before. > > A bit of a difference from what you actually said. > > Here, again, is the post that I have been referring to: > This is the third time I’ve quoted these exact words back to you. They still say the same thing, and your attempts to claim otherwise aren’t fooling me. The word “night” does not appear there, or even “man”. You don’t even say this rule applies only to people the woman doesn’t know, but people she doesn’t know OR does not want to have sex with. I don’t want to have sex with my mother, my best friend, or my elderly landlady, yet I’ve invited all of them into my home. I guess I’m just lucky none of them took it the wrong way! > [@Lamia](#): > > While I’m sure there are circumstances where it would be reasonable for a woman to allow a strange man into her home at night – if you’re far enough north, a late afternoon appointment with the cable guy might be after sunset – I would like to point out that this “letting strange men into your home at night” thing is a straw man that **Ambivalid** made up. He was replying to a post where I said: > > (emphasis added) > > See, nothing about “strange men” or “at night”. > > The situation described in the OP was at night but did not involve **MeanOldLady** inviting a strange man into her house either, he was someone she knew and had just been on a date with. This is a long thread and I don’t have time to completely re-read it, but I don’t think anyone has at any point suggested it would be a good idea in general for women to invite strange men into their homes at night. **Ambivalid** is simply a liar who’s trying to weasel out of responsibility for his own words, which again were: I have included all of my relevant posts in this thread that articulated my position on this matter. I have clearly shown that I am talking about a specific context that was given in the OP regarding the situation presented of late night, post-date, alchol-infused male-female interactions. I’ve lied about NOTHING. ETA: And I do use the term “mixing of signals” in my second post here, but that is just as a way of signifying what the man would use to describe them; not what they would be objectively described as. I don’t believe any legitimate mixed signals were given here. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/580 "2013-04-14T17:53:10Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > What’s the process for full acquaintanceship? Sex. :rolleyes: My oven is broken. So Friday I worked from home and the repair guy came into my house to fix my oven. I was not fully acquainted with the repair guy. He is coming back next week with a part, I still won’t be fully acquainted with him. It really isn’t reasonable not to let men into your house. You need to for repairs. And even non-professionally - there are social situations where I want to invite friends over - should I not let male friends into my home until female friends arrive? “Hey guys, come over to watch a movie - women arrive at 6:30 and they guys can start showing up at 7?” When my husband is out of town and I need to invite a friend over to help move something heavy, should I postpone it because any invite to come over with my husband out of town is a “signal” for a Penthouse Letter episode? Do to a fairly long history of bad judgement, pursuit by creepers, sexual assault and the fairly high suspicion level that goes with it, I have about as circumspect a life around “strange” men as a modern secular woman does. I’m also married with kids and older, which further restricts my social circle. And you know what, its limiting. Its limiting to go to conferences and not network because a casual “hey, lets continue this conversation over dinner” is taken to mean “I’m on a business trip, lets get it on.” Its limiting to be taking a class and arrange all your group project meeting to happen in a coffee shop or the library or over the internet, because you don’t feel comfortable accepting an invite to a guys house and you aren’t letting him into yours. Its limiting to not go to to the SF conventions my friends go to because I’m uncomfortable and afraid someone will harass me - AGAIN! What I do, how far I’ve gone in my career, I’ve made choices to be comfortable and safe, and those choices HAVE had negative impacts on my life. And why - because some guys are jerks and we don’t want to come down with a hard hammer on them? Because I’m giving out a “mixed signal” to invite someone to have dinner on me during a business trip - wearing my wedding ring, talking about my husband. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/581 "2013-04-14T17:56:05Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Two dates was it? And that’s not a stranger? No, are you joking? A stranger is a person you don’t know. An acquaintance is a person you do know. Someone you’ve gone on a date with is not a stranger, so saying “well you should have waited until you trusted him!!” is useless. She did trust him not to break his word. He did it anyway. He was not a stranger, so saying “don’t let strangers into your house” doesn’t apply. Anyone can break your trust at any time regardless of how well you know them, hence the beginning part of my previous post stating that acquaintance rape was far more common than stranger rape. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=30)