# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/582 "2013-04-14T17:57:53Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Those are two completely separate incidents in two completely different locations. I wish YOU WOULD go back and read what I originally wrote. At this point I have probably spent far more time reading your posts than you have. However, looking back at the post that I interpreted as confirmation that these were the same incident: > [@Ambivalid](#): > > There’s no retelling here. :smack: That was the HHFC incident that got me banned. I realize that I was mistaken. By “There’s no retelling here” I thought you were claiming that this was the same incident and that you had not retold it. “HHFC” doesn’t mean anything to me, but looking over the posts in question again I see that you specify the first incident was at Planet Fitness and “HHFC” is presumably the something-something Fitness Club, another location. I apologize for the misunderstanding and for wrongly accusing you of changing your story about this matter. That said, you are still a liar who’s trying to weasel out of his previous idiotic statements. This: > [@Ambivalid](#): > > When people are advised to act cautiously (and it’s not just women but people in general), it is in recognition of the fact that some men simply won’t respect those words. And if people hear such advice so often then why does it happen? Your analogy falls apart because if the woman (or whoever) were to act cautiously and _not_ invite someone into their home that they didn’t know or want sex with, then no situation would have the possibility to occur. Period. However, as a large black man, even behaving in the most respectful and cautious manner may not prevent a possible run-in with a police officer who may “have it out” for you. is not even close to the same thing as this: > [@Ambivalid](#): > > not letting strange men with whom you don’t want sex into your home alone at night out of a concern for your personal safety. or this: > [@Ambivalid](#): > > Not _never_. Just in certain contexts, such as late at night, after both have been drinking and it’s been a romantic date. _Then_ a woman should exercise some caution. A bit of a difference from what you are trying to paint. You said that a cautious woman should, to avoid situations where a man won’t take “no” for an answer, never allow anyone into her house unless she wants to have sex with them. Then she’ll be safe, “Period.” You have since revised this to referring only to situations at night and with men, although in one post you specify men who are strangers and in another you specify a man who _isn’t_ a stranger but rather a date, and that both parties have been drinking. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/583 "2013-04-14T18:00:16Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > At this point I have probably spent far more time reading your posts than you have. However, looking back at the post that I interpreted as confirmation that these were the same incident: > > I realize that I was mistaken. By “There’s no retelling here” I thought you were claiming that this was the same incident and that you had not retold it. “HHFC” doesn’t mean anything to me, but looking over the posts in question again I see that you specify the first incident was at Planet Fitness and “HHFC” is presumably the something-something Fitness Club, another location. I apologize for the misunderstanding and for wrongly accusing you of changing your story about this matter. > > That said, you are still a liar who’s trying to weasel out of his previous idiotic statements. This: > > is not even close to the same thing as this: > > or this: > > You said that a cautious woman should, to avoid situations where a man won’t take “no” for an answer, never allow anyone into her house unless she wants to have sex with them. Then she’ll be safe, “Period.” You have since revised this to referring only to situations at night and with men, although in one post you specify men who are strangers and in another you specify a man who _isn’t_ a stranger but rather a date, and that both parties have been drinking. You are parsing over my words too much. I’ve meant the very same thing from the get-go. I don’t know what else to say. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/584 "2013-04-14T18:02:39Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > At this point I have probably spent far more time reading your posts than you have. However, looking back at the post that I interpreted as confirmation that these were the same incident: > > I realize that I was mistaken. By “There’s no retelling here” I thought you were claiming that this was the same incident and that you had not retold it. “HHFC” doesn’t mean anything to me, but looking over the posts in question again I see that you specify the first incident was at Planet Fitness and “HHFC” is presumably the something-something Fitness Club, another location. I apologize for the misunderstanding and for wrongly accusing you of changing your story about this matter. > > That said, you are still a liar who’s trying to weasel out of his previous idiotic statements. This: > > is not even close to the same thing as this: > > or this: > > You said that a cautious woman should, to avoid situations where a man won’t take “no” for an answer, never allow anyone into her house unless she wants to have sex with them. Then she’ll be safe, “Period.” You have since revised this to referring only to situations at night and with men, although in one post you specify men who are strangers and in another you specify a man who _isn’t_ a stranger but rather a date, and that both parties have been drinking. NM. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/585 "2013-04-14T18:04:12Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > No, are you joking? A stranger is a person you don’t know. An acquaintance is a person you do know. Someone you’ve gone on a date with is not a stranger, so saying “well you should have waited until you trusted him!!” is useless. She did trust him not to break his word. He did it anyway. He was not a stranger, so saying “don’t let strangers into your house” doesn’t apply. Anyone can break your trust at any time regardless of how well you know them, hence the beginning part of my previous post stating that acquaintance rape was far more common than stranger rape. Look, she apparently didn’t know him well enough to have a handle on how well he’d respect her wishes? Stranger doesn’t always mean unacquainted. As I said, I’m glad the guy wasn’t a violent sort of person and no one was physically hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/586 "2013-04-14T18:07:23Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Look, she apparently didn’t know him well enough to have a handle on how well he’d respect her wishes? Stranger doesn’t always mean unacquainted. As I said, I’m glad the guy wasn’t a violent sort of person and no one was physically hurt. But this doesn’t make any sense. Sometimes a very good friend or family member does something awful. There is no way we can always ‘have a handle on how well’ someone will respect our wishes. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/587 "2013-04-14T18:12:26Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Look, she apparently didn’t know him well enough to have a handle on how well he’d respect her wishes? Stranger doesn’t always mean unacquainted. As I said, I’m glad the guy wasn’t a violent sort of person and no one was physically hurt. Good thing friends and family never betray our trust. I’d hate to find out that someone I thought I knew was actually a stranger all along. And yes, that’s actually the very definition of a stranger. Unacquainted. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/588 "2013-04-14T18:13:10Z")
I agree to a point. I also think people should error on the side of caution with respect to their personal safety, and single women who live alone should set that standard ever further into the caution area. And even then, it won’t be all protective. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/589 "2013-04-14T18:20:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I agree to a point. I also think people should error on the side of caution with respect to their personal safety, and single women who live alone should set that standard ever further into the caution area. And even then, it won’t be all protective. Don’t MOST sexual assaults actually come from people the woman knows well? Not strangers. So it is actually weird to hear all of this caution about strangers. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/590 "2013-04-14T18:26:40Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I have included all of my relevant posts in this thread that articulated my position on this matter. No, you didn’t. You conveniently omitted the one post that sparked this line of discussion, the one I have quoted back to you four different times now. Must I make it five? > [@Ambivalid](#): > > Your analogy falls apart because if the woman (or whoever) were to act cautiously and **_not_ invite someone into their home that they didn’t know or want sex with** , then no situation would have the possibility to occur. Period. (emphasis added) Just pretending that post doesn’t exist doesn’t make it go away. > [@](#): > > I’ve lied about NOTHING. You’ve lied about both what you said and what I’ve said. (I never said it was a good idea to invite strange men in at night.) In the post I’m responding to now, the one you claim includes “all” relevant posts, you not only omitted the crucial post by you but also my quoting of that same post in order to make it look like I was referring to something different. You are a liar, and you’re not even good at it. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > You are parsing over my words too much. I am responding to the literal meaning of the exact words that you chose to type out and post, stating that a woman should “_not_ invite someone into their home that they didn’t know or want sex with”. > [@](#): > > I’ve meant the very same thing from the get-go. I don’t know what else to say. Well, way back when I first called you out on this you could have said that you expressed yourself badly and what you actually wrote wasn’t really what you meant, but instead you chose to be dishonest about both your own posts and mine. Now that you’ve thoroughly convinced me that you’re a liar and a weasel, I have no reason to believe you when you claim that when you said a woman should “_not_ invite someone into their home that they didn’t know or want sex with” you really only meant at night, when the man is a stranger and yet also her date, and when both have been drinking. As to what else to say, my advice would be nothing. Every post you’ve made in this thread has lowered my opinion of you, so you’d be doing yourself a favor by just stopping. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/591 "2013-04-14T18:48:32Z")
I’m late to this rodeo, but I will say that amidst a good many depressing posts, there have been some gems. **Nzinga** and **The Understanding** speak truth when they liken this to racial discrimination. Someone earlier asked what was at the root of the problem being vented about. How about this: We are taught from birth that curtailing women’s freedoms is a reasonable cost to stopping male misbehavior. This is one of the more disappointing vestiges from our more sexist past, and also one that has proven to be the most difficult to eradicate. For some reason we think there is nothing more we can do to control how men act (without causing the techtonic plates to bump each other and wreck the planet with earthquakes, presumably), but with women’s behavior, the potential for effecting change is seemingly infinite. We can keep chipping away at the ole girls as much as we want to because they will always yield to pressure. And pay you for the pleasure! Folks don’t like to talk about “male privilege”, but it’s a phrase that should automatically spring to mind when you hear men lecture on high about what womenshould do to keep themselves safe. Bonus points if the lecture comes with with multiple paternalistic offerings about how the real world operates (as if only men are the only ones who are familiar with the Real World and all the craziness that goes on there). It is easy for them because it is not their freedom and autonomy at stake. The cold hard truth is that if women never acted “recklessly” by doing the kinds of things they are regularly faulted for after they’ve been victimized, the number of lonely, sexually frustrated men with nothing to do on a Saturday night would quadruple. And the same men smugly telling women what they “should” be doing would very likely be among this contingent. Which means the advice punishes everyone, not just women and not just the bad actors. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/592 "2013-04-14T19:20:25Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > No, you didn’t. You conveniently omitted the one post that sparked this line of discussion, the one I have quoted back to you four different times now. Must I make it five? > > (emphasis added) > > Just pretending that post doesn’t exist doesn’t make it go away. > > You’ve lied about both what you said and what I’ve said. (I never said it was a good idea to invite strange men in at night.) In the post I’m responding to now, the one you claim includes “all” relevant posts, you not only omitted the crucial post by you but also my quoting of that same post in order to make it look like I was referring to something different. You are a liar, and you’re not even good at it. > > "As to what else to say, my advice would be nothing. Every post you’ve made in this thread has lowered my opinion of you, so you’d be doing yourself a favor by just stopping. Jesus H. Christ. This is what I get for deciding to participate in a controversial subject. Good grief. I’ve been nothing but consistent and honest this entire time. This quote: Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post "Your analogy falls apart because if the woman (or whoever) were to act cautiously and not invite someone into their home that they didn’t know or want sex with, then no situation would have the possibility to occur. Period. " That quote was posted ATFTER I had already articulated my position on the matter more than once, I was just reiterating my already established position. I might have not worded it in the most complete, fully-explanatory way THIS time, but that is because I was simply responding to a post comparing woman navigating the world of sexual assault with black men navigating the world of police brutality. This time I failed to include the specific contexts in which the action would result in the desired result. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/593 "2013-04-14T19:27:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > For some reason we think there is nothing more we can do to control how men act (without causing the techtonic plates to bump each other and wreck the planet with earthquakes, presumably), but with women’s behavior, the potential for effecting change is seemingly infinite. We can keep chipping away at the ole girls as much as we want to because they will always yield to pressure. Goddamnit. This. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/594 "2013-04-14T19:32:49Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > No, you didn’t. You conveniently omitted the one post that sparked this line of discussion, the one I have quoted back to you four different times now. Must I make it five? > > (emphasis added) > > Just pretending that post doesn’t exist doesn’t make it go away. But he already said ‘‘that’s not what I _meant_.’’ From here it just looks like you’re unfairly bludgeoning him because what he was trying to say didn’t come out right the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/595 "2013-04-14T19:46:37Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by you with the face View Post For some reason we think there is nothing more we can do to control how men act (without causing the techtonic plates to bump each other and wreck the planet with earthquakes, presumably), but with women’s behavior, the potential for effecting change is seemingly infinite. We can keep chipping away at the ole girls as much as we want to because they will always yield to pressure. > [@Troppus](#): > > Goddamnit. This. See, I don’t think it’s the case that “there is nothing more we can do to control how men act” while also encouraging women to be safe. Why can’t it be _both?_ Why can’t everything be done to effect a change in men’s attitudes and behaviors in our society and _at the same time_ advocate for womens safety? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/596 "2013-04-14T19:47:58Z")
It seems a number of men are acting under consequentialist logic here. If he did a bad thing, that means it was unreasonable to trust him and he was a stranger. If he had not done a bad thing, that means it was not unreasonable to trust him and he was an acquaintance. If something bad happens, you did something wrong. If nothing bad happens, you did everything right. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/597 "2013-04-14T19:58:36Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I might have not worded it in the most complete, fully-explanatory way THIS time, but that is because I was simply responding to a post comparing woman navigating the world of sexual assault with black men navigating the world of police brutality. This time I failed to include the specific contexts in which the action would result in the desired result. If you had just said this in response to post [#535](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16192094&postcount=535), where I first invited you to rethink your advice to women, you could have saved us both some time. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/598 "2013-04-14T20:00:31Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Why can’t everything be done to effect a change in men’s attitudes and behaviors in our society and _at the same time_ advocate for womens safety? You know, I don’t really think most of the guys in this thread who are saying she did something wrong are really advocating for women’s safety. I think they are advocating for men’s rights to be pushy and aggressive. They are arguing that pushy and aggressive men who don’t accept a “no” is right, natural, and expected. Therefore, when they are the pushy, aggressive man who doesn’t accept a no, they are in the right. I simply don’t believe that most people who are claiming she sent mixed signals really care about her being safe from men. They just want her to understand that when they do it, or a future man does it in her life, it’s her fault. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/599 "2013-04-14T20:03:23Z")
So I started reading this thread on Friday afternoon, and it totally raced ahead of me and then I had to leave and do things, and holy fuck! All I can say is there are a lot of assholes in this thread. > [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Male allies are absolutely critical for any real change to take place. That’s pretty much the case with any sweeping social change we have ever created - the majority must be on board, and honestly? They’ll listen to you, not us. That better be the collective “you”, because nobody is listening to **panaccione.** > [@panaccione](#): > > Well, where’s that behavior and mindset coming from? And what is the proper solution? The proper solution is educating the youth (both sexes) about consent. > [@](#): > > If you ask me, I think it’s in large part due to their sexual frustration. I’m just throwing out Prostitution as an idea to help dissolve some of that. Not the end all, be all. No, the real solution to sexual frustration is masturbation, with a helping hand from porn as necessary. Seriously, a person can live for years without any sex with another person, and not “lose control” and have to rape somebody. Sex with someone else is a privilege. If you are horny and can’t find a willing partner, take care of it yourself. > [@Jragon](#): > > Unca Cecil has a [few words](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2139/what-is-the-plural-of-penis) for you all. Actually that was **bibliophage**. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/600 "2013-04-14T20:27:37Z")
[QUOTE=Ambivalid] See, I don’t think it’s the case that “there is nothing more we can do to control how men act” while also encouraging women to be safe. Why can’t it be _both?_ Why can’t everything be done to effect a change in men’s attitudes and behaviors in our society and _at the same time_ advocate for womens safety? [/QUOTE] But it never _is_ both, is it, **Ambivalid**? How many posts have you made clarifying your initial position of exactly how much wrong women are to let any man but their fathers inside their homes without an armed guard present? Yes, that’s right. A fuck-ton of posts, all dumber and more mealy-mouthed than the last. Now, how many posts have you made telling off the coercion-happy asslobsters like **treis** that they are horrible shitheads who, _at best_, have cajoled many women into having lousy sex with him just so they’ll leave without taking a dump on the drapes? Oh? None at all? How astonishing! And my guess is that when your shitty friends talk about the wacky badgering they had to do to finally got their dates to put out, you clap them on the back and order another round. You ask women what else we think we can do? We can’t do shit about these clowns because, as you see in this compost heap of a thread, \*they’ll never listen to a word we say. \* They might actually listen to their bros. Too bad their bros are, well, bros. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/601 "2013-04-14T20:58:00Z")
> [@colander](#): > > But it never _is_ both, is it, **Ambivalid**? > > How many posts have you made clarifying your initial position of exactly how much wrong women are to let any man but their fathers inside their homes without an armed guard present? > > Yes, that’s right. A fuck-ton of posts, all dumber and more mealy-mouthed than the last. > > Now, how many posts have you made telling off the coercion-happy asslobsters like **treis** that they are horrible shitheads who, _at best_, have cajoled many women into having lousy sex with him just so they’ll leave without taking a dump on the drapes? > > Oh? None at all? How astonishing! > > And my guess is that when your shitty friends talk about the wacky badgering they had to do to finally got their dates to put out, you clap them on the back and order another round. > > You ask women what else we think we can do? We can’t do shit about these clowns because, as you see in this compost heap of a thread, \*they’ll never listen to a word we say. \* > > They might actually listen to their bros. Too bad their bros are, well, bros. This is a disgusting post. Way to mischaracterize my positions. I haven’t been ignoring guys like Treis, I simply haven’t been seeing them post in this thread. If they have been, I haven’t been reading them because they haven’t been a part of the discussions I’ve been having. I do know that poster has been the focus of a DIFFERENT pit thread but I haven’t been involved in that thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=31)