# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/662 "2013-04-15T19:07:39Z")
Whoha! Imagine that. An alpha male that doesn’t take no for an answer. How shocking and surprising that must be for you. Next time perhaps you should try one of them “beta males.” Perhaps they’ll be more in your league. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/663 "2013-04-15T19:08:22Z")
You know what really killed Micheal Jackson? Food poisoning. It was all those 8 year old weiners he was “eating” Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/664 "2013-04-15T19:23:04Z")
Rape jokes are off the table. What about forking dongle jokes? Are they ok? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/665 "2013-04-15T19:27:21Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Whoha! Imagine that. An alpha male that doesn’t take no for an answer. How shocking and surprising that must be for you. Next time perhaps you should try one of them “beta males.” Perhaps they’ll be more in your league. Get tha fuck outta here with that shit. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/666 "2013-04-15T19:38:29Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Rape jokes are off the table. What about forking dongle jokes? Are they ok? God that whole fiasco was stupid. So, so stupid. But I’m not sure this thread is the place for me to rant about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/667 "2013-04-15T19:59:00Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > I appreciate it. > > One thing that sticks with me in reading all this is that this sexist culture is so very ingrained in our society that guys like me, who claim to be pro-woman, liberal, pro-choice, etc. can still have some sexist thoughts/beliefs and not even realize it. It’s eye opening. Yep. And it’s why we keep talking. Because somewhere, some guy says “maybe she didn’t really change her mind, maybe she felt threatened.” And not getting this doesn’t mean a guy needs to turn in his pro woman card. My husband didn’t get this when we started dating, I still married him. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/668 "2013-04-15T20:36:16Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Whoha! Imagine that. An alpha male that doesn’t take no for an answer. How shocking and surprising that must be for you. Next time perhaps you should try one of them “beta males.” Perhaps they’ll be more in your league. Your penetrating wit is always welcome, Søren, but don’t you have some jackboots that need polishing? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/669 "2013-04-15T20:38:24Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > (I am accepting it less and less about women, too. Hearing the music bothers me more and more.) This is me too. Being conscious of this stuff (plus racism) is psychologically taxing, though. Almost makes you want to boycott the whole world. I can understand why so many people out there turn off their brains and mindlessly consume entertainment without questioning what they are seeing and hearing. Because when you actually think about it critically, it’s painful on many levels. Yesterday I had a mini-epiphany regarding why our discourse is so heavily skewed towards admonishing, warning, and shaming women. To put it simply, it’s easier for men to maintain power in all spheres of life when women regard men with fear. Since our culture is very macho-oriented and revolves around a “might makes right” flavored set of values, it is not surprising that the so-called weaker sex gets assigned so much blame. Women lack the “might” that enables them to be “right”, and making them “right” on par with men would require that we dismantle our most deeply ingrained assumptions about gender roles. This sounds really evil and ruthless as written, but I don’t think it’s a conscious agenda, nor a deliberate one. In fact, I think most men are well-meaning when they focus on women’s behavior. When they encourage women to be safer, they aren’t consciously saying anything negative about female competence, and they aren’t consciously trying to lift themselves up as the superior, more powerful gender. But subconsciously, I do think the masculine ego feeds off the idea that women need to fear men and are in need of extra protection, because it reinforces male notions of strength and capability. Because if women don’t have this fear and live freely, without risk of predatory men, couldn’t this make good, heroic men feel unneeded? A little unnecessary? Being the protector is a big part of the masculine image. Unfortunately, to be a protector, you need someone to occupy the vulnerable role. Women need to _stay_ vulnerable to make this work. Thus, even good men want women to be afraid of men. Even if men pose little risk to them, in truth. This fear keeps them in power. So ultimately what you get from all of this is bad men who blame their own conduct on their irrepressible genitalia and fickle women. And you also get good men who, while not blaming women, still contribute to the “woman blaming” side of the equation out of the subconscious desire to keep women fearful, endangered, and dependent on them for protection. And I’m speaking generally. Of course I know not every single individual man out there thinks like this. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/670 "2013-04-15T20:44:37Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Your penetrating wit is always welcome, Søren, but don’t you have some jackboots that need polishing? Nope. Got bitches to polish my jackboots like an Alpha. Name is Rune btw. Only a beta would be caught with a name like Søren. Charlie Brown is called Søren Brun in Danish and you can’t get any more beta than Charlie Brown. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/671 "2013-04-15T20:48:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So ultimately what you get from all of this is bad men who blame their own conduct on their irrepressible genitalia and fickle women. And you also get good men who, while not blaming women, still contribute to the “woman blaming” side of the equation out of the subconscious desire to keep women fearful, endangered, and dependent on them for protection. > > And I’m speaking generally. Of course I know not every single individual man out there thinks like this. Interesting points. I’m totally with you on the psychologically taxing nature of just paying attention to these messages, be they racist or sexist or anything-ist. Why am I on a board, for example, that tolerates racism and sexism? Because I ignore. I look past. I argue sometimes, and other times I just shut down (hey, the female body DOES have ways to shut that thing down!) and tune it out or leave. And when I see a thread like this, it makes me feel sick. I feel like I’ve supported it happening because I haven’t left, that by tolerating jerks, I am part of the problem. And I think that’s true, to some extent. I put people on ignore and feel gross for having read their words and feel a little less valued and a little less worthy every time I don’t say anything, and every time I do. Lose-lose. Do good guys have some of the psychological issues you raise, wanting women to be dependent? Yeah, I think some certainly do. It’s attractive to be wanted and needed, after all. But I think it’s more just because it is simpler to say “You can’t change other people’s behavior, so you have to protect yourself!” And so predator men can come into a thread like this and say outright or just insinuate that she must have wanted it or she wouldn’t have done what she did and the good guys think “Gosh, I wouldn’t have accosted this woman, so maybe there’s something in that after all. You know, you women should take more care.” God. I don’t know. I’m tired. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/672 "2013-04-15T21:49:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This is me too. Being conscious of this stuff (plus racism) is psychologically taxing, though. Almost makes you want to boycott the whole world. I can understand why so many people out there turn off their brains and mindlessly consume entertainment without questioning what they are seeing and hearing. Because when you actually think about it critically, it’s painful on many levels. > > Yesterday I had a mini-epiphany regarding why our discourse is so heavily skewed towards admonishing, warning, and shaming women. To put it simply, it’s easier for men to maintain power in all spheres of life when women regard men with fear. Since our culture is very macho-oriented and revolves around a “might makes right” flavored set of values, it is not surprising that the so-called weaker sex gets assigned so much blame. Women lack the “might” that enables them to be “right”, and making them “right” on par with men would require that we dismantle our most deeply ingrained assumptions about gender roles. > > This sounds really evil and ruthless as written, but I don’t think it’s a conscious agenda, nor a deliberate one. In fact, I think most men are well-meaning when they focus on women’s behavior. When they encourage women to be safer, they aren’t consciously saying anything negative about female competence, and they aren’t consciously trying to lift themselves up as the superior, more powerful gender. But subconsciously, I do think the masculine ego feeds off the idea that women need to fear men and are in need of extra protection, because it reinforces male notions of strength and capability. Because if women don’t have this fear and live freely, without risk of predatory men, couldn’t this make good, heroic men feel unneeded? A little unnecessary? Being the protector is a big part of the masculine image. Unfortunately, to be a protector, you need someone to occupy the vulnerable role. Women need to _stay_ vulnerable to make this work. Thus, even good men want women to be afraid of men. Even if men pose little risk to them, in truth. This fear keeps them in power. > > So ultimately what you get from all of this is bad men who blame their own conduct on their irrepressible genitalia and fickle women. And you also get good men who, while not blaming women, still contribute to the “woman blaming” side of the equation out of the subconscious desire to keep women fearful, endangered, and dependent on them for protection. > > And I’m speaking generally. Of course I know not every single individual man out there thinks like this. I’m quoting this whole jumpoff, just to stress the sheer thoughtfulness of it. It is strange that you started with how tiring these topics can be, because when I see you getting it in in GD on race topics, I often marvel, “Where does she get the fucking energy?” I’m glad you do have the energy, though, because you be droppin’ jewels. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/673 "2013-04-15T23:36:57Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Same here. My gut told me to sell my Microsoft shares at $17.35 but I didn’t listen and got raped. ☹ You posted _ **this** _ in direct response to someone mentioning how triggering a description of assault was? The old saying is true that if you listen, people will tell you who they really are. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/674 "2013-04-15T23:39:12Z")
Crappy investors? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/675 "2013-04-15T23:49:44Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I’m quoting this whole jumpoff, just to stress the sheer thoughtfulness of it. It is strange that you started with how tiring these topics can be, because when I see you getting it in in GD on race topics, I often marvel, “Where does she get the fucking energy?” > > I’m glad you do have the energy, though, because you be droppin’ jewels. Thanks, **Nzinga Seated**! You had me screaming “preach” a few pages ago, so the feeling is mutual. On this board, racism is apt to push me to post most vehemently because unfortunately, there are not that many people here willing to challenge the bullshit and call it what it is. So I feel a greater sense of duty. But sexism actually bothers me as much as racism does, if not more so. And you know what pains me the most? When I see women promulgating the very same messages that disempower them. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/676 "2013-04-15T23:57:33Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] On this board, racism is apt to push me to post most vehemently because unfortunately, there are not that many people here willing to challenge the bullshit and call it what it is. So I feel a greater sense of duty. But sexism actually bothers me as much as racism does, if not more so. And you know what pains me the most? When I see women promulgating the very same messages that disempower them. [/QUOTE] You know what’s fucked up? I’ve started to feel guilty about my participation in this thread. I don’t really consider myself an oversensitive person when it comes to these issues (though I very much used to be), but sometimes this shit just bothers the hell out of me. Then I’m like, ‘‘Well, I hope I don’t sound like I’m whining…’’ Holy Jesus Fuck, today I said to my husband, ‘‘Right now I really wish I hadn’t been molested.’’ Or ever had to deal with any of that shit. Is that whining? Is that being melodramatic? It’s hard, when you’ve been through it, to sit there and watch unhealthy and callous attitudes propagated toward sexual assault. My point is, sometimes it’s easier to come out swinging against ignorance if you HAVEN’T been directly affected by it. I’ve never felt guilty about participating in a racism thread, ever. As for my guilt, or feeling of exposure, or whatever is happening with me psychologically with regards to these sexism threads, it’s like I have to make a conscious decision to do it regardless of how it makes me feel. I don’t think I’m hysterical by any means, but the fact that I’m emotionally involved is indisputable. ---
**Author:** ![Carl\_Corey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Carl\_Corey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carl_Corey)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/677 "2013-04-16T00:39:50Z")
Olives, you nothing to feel guilty about in this thread. The bodies in the crawlspace are another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/678 "2013-04-16T01:05:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Nope. Got bitches to polish my jackboots like an Alpha. Name is Rune btw. Only a beta would be caught with a name like Søren. Charlie Brown is called Søren Brun in Danish and you can’t get any more beta than Charlie Brown. Funny, my definition of being “alpha” in any meaningful sense involves women wanting to do things to me. Having to badger your way in is for “betas”, if we MUST use your terminology–those of us who are actually on top of our social game are good enough at sending and receiving signals that we rarely ever HEAR a “no”. There, I’ve just summed up the entire reason that PUA terms and strategies are retarded in a single paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/679 "2013-04-16T01:21:05Z")
> [@Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](#): > > I just think Drunky is a dipshit. And not funny. _ **In high pitched falsetto:** _ _Nailed-it._ ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/680 "2013-04-16T01:27:50Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > _ **In high pitched falsetto:** _ _Nailed-it._ As opposed to a low-pitched falsetto? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/681 "2013-04-16T01:30:07Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > As opposed to a low-pitched falsetto? Tough room! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=35)