# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/702 "2013-04-16T18:14:11Z")
> [@Clarisse\_McClellan](#): > > This excellent post reminded me that in a college anthropology class once, on the first day of class, the professor gave us an assignment to make a list of our top five fears in life. After we had turned them in and he had reviewed them, he talked to us about how gobsmacked he was that every single female in the class had listed “being raped” as their top fear. He actually got a little bit emotional about it. He had high school aged daughters, he said, and he was shocked at the thought that the fear of being raped must occupy their thoughts as much as it did. It’s interesting. My immediate thought was that it wasn’t on my list but… it’s on my list. It’s not my top fear, but it’s on the list. What I’m not sure of is whether it would have been on my list a week ago. Threads like this amp up my anxiety about some really ugly male attitudes. The contempt some men show for women, women’s autonomy, and our worth as individuals is scary. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/703 "2013-04-16T18:18:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think the inability or unwillingness to distinguish between advice and slut-shaming is much of the problem. > > Regards, > Shodan How about the difference between offering advice after it’s been requested and spouting condescending claptrap multiple times after others have pointed out that it’s not welcome? How are you doing on that? ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/704 "2013-04-16T18:19:18Z")
Look, you’re the one that showed up to claim that you had something special to share and just haven’t been appreciated like you should. To wit: > [@Shodan](#): > > OTOH, on these boards at least, even someone with a certain level of expertise in defense and prevention of sexual assault is often met with accusations of “slut shaming” or “blaming the victim” whenever you point out that there are things that women can do to make themselves safer. … So maybe your years of experience aren’t working as well as they might, and maybe there are things you could learn from those who have spent time studying the fields of hand-to-hand combat and personal safety. Hence my question “exactly what extra qualifications for listing common safety precautions comes from martial arts mastery?”, a question you still haven’t answered. So in other words, you are yet another man patting the poor stupid little wimmenz on the head and telling them how to take care of themselves. Because no one on the entire fucking planet has ever told any of them “don’t get drunk in public” or “don’t let yourself get set up”. And obviously women are way too stupid and incompetent to think of those things themselves, it takes a martial arts expert to advise them to do so. After all, it is completely and totally reasonable to expect all women to completely give up all freedom to live as they choose, because it is simply not possible to tell asshole men “stop acting like assholes, that’s no longer acceptable behavior”. Boys will be boys, and all that. Poor, poor abused little men. Poor, poor little Shodan, so unappreciated for his marvelous and singular wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/705 "2013-04-16T18:30:51Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Women learn first- and second-hand before we are out of our teens that the way a man behaves with his friends and the way he behaves towards us while in front of his friends has nothing to do with how he behaves towards us in private. I know that men understand this, but I wonder how many of them _get_ this on the same visceral level women do. I don’t know that this is a gender divide. Manipulative abusive women do the same things. AFAIK, they tend more to emotional and psychological abuse than physical, but the basic techniques (isolate, restrict, violate, justify) are the same. Abusive assholes are all alike. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/706 "2013-04-16T18:32:43Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > How about the difference between offering advice after it’s been requested and spouting condescending claptrap multiple times after others have pointed out that it’s not welcome? > > How are you doing on that? It took me a while to figure out what you are talking about. Then I discovered it was “nothing”. So, fine. Thanks for asking. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/707 "2013-04-16T19:05:34Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > I think it’s a mistake to say that men who rape are not rational actors. First, it falls into the fallacy that men aren’t capable of thinking straight when their dicks are hard. It’s insulting to men, and it means that we underestimate the very people whose behavior we’re trying to change. Yes, there are the men that both **miss elizabeth** and **Olives** have talked about - men who don’t believe that what they do is rape. But these men aren’t exactly eager to examine their behavior and the consequences for the women they harm. It’s why, along with raping, they do everything they can to reinforce rape culture by minimizing what women experience, insisting that they are entitled to sexual gratification, and casting victims as the villains. I think, from my POV as a man, the disconnect I feel with what you’re saying in this paragraph is that those guys who don’t really “get” that what they’re doing is rape are kinda the low-hanging fruit of the drive to fight rape culture. The guy who sets out to rape and not get caught, he’s not going to be particularly responsive to anything I say–but the guy who hasn’t got it through his thick skull that “she’s drunk” = “you are raping her” probably CAN be swayed if he can be convinced. Granted, this is the same reason that “rape prevention” advice is so often bunk–it seems to me that most rapes/assaults I’ve ever been aware of were not violent, or from strangers, they were from frat guys who took liberties at parties because they thought that’s what parties were for and if you came to one and got drunk, as a woman, it was because that’s what you wanted. It might be a function of what people one knows, granted. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/708 "2013-04-16T19:08:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, I wasn’t necessarily talking only about combat techniques. In fact, IME giving advice of that sort doesn’t lead to accusations of slut-shaming as often as other kinds of advice, like “don’t get drunk in public” or “don’t let yourself get set up”. That doesn’t really jive with the following comment you made, namely > [@](#): > > I think the inability or unwillingness to distinguish between advice and slut-shaming is much of the problem. If the advice you’re giving isn’t in your experience construed as distinct from slut-shaming, then why bother saying this? Then again, I ask the same question asked upthread–what special expertise do you bring to the table that is not something everyone’s heard before, and/or due to your particular training as a martial artist? > [@Shodan](#): > > Well, it is worse than spiders. Then again, if you can’t see that this isn’t a thread for jokes, even black humor such as you demonstrate here, I’m not sure how anyone can help you not be construed poorly. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/709 "2013-04-16T19:16:04Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > Hence my question “exactly what extra qualifications for listing common safety precautions comes from martial arts mastery?”, a question you still haven’t answered. Well, for one thing, I have a certain amount of experience dealing with idiots who say dumb shit like this: > [@](#): > > So in other words, you are yet another man patting the poor stupid little wimmenz on the head and telling them how to take care of themselves. Or who interpret the advice not to get drunk in public as an expectation that women “completely give up all freedom to live as they choose”. Most women (thank God) have better sense than that. I focus on those women when I teach. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/710 "2013-04-16T19:21:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > advice not to get drunk in public Do you give that advice to male members of your class (presuming you meant “teach” in a formal sense), perchance? Completely aside from the context difference between “A self-defense class” or “solicited advice” and “unsolicited advice in a message board thread”. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/711 "2013-04-16T19:30:11Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Then again, if you can’t see that this isn’t a thread for jokes, even black humor such as you demonstrate here, I’m not sure how anyone can help you not be construed poorly. Jesus christ wash the sand out of your vagina. Your getting hysterical and acting like a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/712 "2013-04-16T19:34:51Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > If the advice you’re giving isn’t in your experience construed as distinct from slut-shaming, then why bother saying this? I don’t know what you are talking about. I said it because it was, and is, a problem. Dolts like **redtail23** are going to misconstrue everything. That can’t be helped. I address myself (when I teach) to the teachable. > [@](#): > > Then again, I ask the same question asked upthread–what special expertise do you bring to the table that is not something everyone’s heard before, and/or due to your particular training as a martial artist? The experience of teaching defensive tactics. Many years back I taught at a local community college, as well as teaching jujitsu at my university club. And there I encountered people who were resistant to some of the common-sense notions that I taught. They often fell into one of two categories - men who were threatened by women learning to defend themselves, and feminists of a certain stripe, who were threatened by the fact that I did not care about their rhetoric. Both these types tried to denigrate what I was teaching, both hand-to-hand skills and the kind of situational awareness that is even more important. Tough shit - I don’t care. I don’t care if your boyfriend is afraid you will be able to fight back, and I don’t care if you think it is a denial of your personal freedom to tell you not to get drunk in public (as **redtail23** apparently believes). So that is one of the things I bring - the ability to spot bullshit. To be fair, that kind of BS doesn’t just come from women, as in that ridiculous pepper spray thread, where men were claiming that a woman cowering away from a threatening man with pepper spray in your hand constituted assault. > [@](#): > > Then again, if you can’t see that this isn’t a thread for jokes, even black humor such as you demonstrate here, I’m not sure how anyone can help you not be construed poorly. It doesn’t matter if I make jokes or not. Some people (like **redtail23** ) are going to misunderstand no matter what I say. Therefore, I might as well amuse myself. It is the Pit, after all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/713 "2013-04-16T19:43:14Z")
You know what Shodan, no one in this thread is currently teachable. Right now, it’s coming across as patronizing. So if you want to focus your efforts on the teachable, take it somewhere else. Not hear, not now. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/714 "2013-04-16T19:49:58Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You know what Shodan, no one in this thread is currently teachable. Right now, it’s coming across as patronizing. So if you want to focus your efforts on the teachable, take it somewhere else. Not hear, not now. But he needs to abuse himself! Edit: aMuse. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/715 "2013-04-16T20:05:48Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You know what Shodan, no one in this thread is currently teachable. No, I don’t know that. Neither do you. > [@](#): > > take it somewhere else. Not hear, not now. Look, honey, just have your boyfriend show you how to use the Back button. Then you won’t have to trouble your pretty little head about my posts in this thread. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/716 "2013-04-16T20:14:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It took me a while to figure out what you are talking about. Then I discovered it was “nothing”. So, fine. > > Thanks for asking. > > Regards, > Shodan Gee in a thread about guys not respecting what women have to say and thinking they know what a woman needs, this guy is being told that his “helpful” approach is actually offensive and he doesn’t listen because he knows better what a woman needs. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/717 "2013-04-16T20:21:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, for one thing, I have a certain amount of experience dealing with idiots who say dumb shit like this:Or who interpret the advice not to get drunk in public as an expectation that women “completely give up all freedom to live as they choose”. Gosh, that sounds just as stupid as thinking that asking people to behave respectfully on a message board is the same as forcing them to participate in a feminist focus group. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/718 "2013-04-16T20:31:09Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Jesus christ wash the sand out of your vagina. Your getting hysterical and acting like a bitch. Jesus Fuck, **Drunky Smurf** , go stick your dick in a blender. It’ll be funnier than the shit you’re spouting here. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/719 "2013-04-16T20:40:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I don’t know that. Neither do you. > Look, honey, just have your boyfriend show you how to use the Back button. Then you won’t have to trouble your pretty little head about my posts in this thread. > > Regards, > Shodan Why? Why are you choosing to respond like this? Did I do something to hurt you? Am I threatening? Do you want to get a rise out of me? Do you want to finally convince ME after all these years that you are an asshole? Come on Shodan, this is me. Remember when you said you didn’t want to come to a twin cities dope fest because maybe people wouldn’t like you? I know you aren’t this person. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/720 "2013-04-16T20:43:18Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Why? Why are you choosing to respond like this? Did I do something to hurt you? Am I threatening? Do you want to get a rise out of me? Do you want to finally convince ME after all these years that you are an asshole? Come on Shodan, this is me. > > Remember when you said you didn’t want to come to a twin cities dope fest because maybe people wouldn’t like you? I know you aren’t this person. Shit. I’m sorry. I got carried away. Yes, I know it is the Pit, that’s not a good enough excuse. I apologize. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/721 "2013-04-16T20:51:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Shit. > > I’m sorry. I got carried away. Yes, I know it is the Pit, that’s not a good enough excuse. > > I apologize. > > Regards, > Shodan Thank you. I think having an interest in telling women how to protect themselves is a good thing. Its certainly more positive than the “but no doesnt always mean no”. Or “i can’t read signals, don’t blame me.” tactics. But here and now, there are a lot of women who have had a lot of their triggers pulled trotting out rape and abuse stories. We don’t have a lot of patience for what we perceive as patronizing, whether that is the intent or not. We don’t need to be told we should have kneed him in the groin, or not accepted a ride home, or held our keys in our hands to form a crude weapon, or carried mace or a handgun. My mace was in my purse, my purse was on the other side of the room, and the door was locked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=37)