# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/742 "2013-04-17T18:09:53Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Polite societies recognize there are times and places to say certain things. One doesn’t go to a funeral and tell the widow that he was a rat bastard who had been cheating on her for thirty years, and one doesn’t go into a thread where a woman was assaulted and tell her it was her own fault and reams of contradictory advice for how to have prevented it. And when someone asks the person to please stop, tell them that they should be glad for the advice and be quiet and listen. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/743 "2013-04-17T18:20:30Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I made points in earnest that I felt were good suggestions and didn’t realize the patronizing and offensive meaning behind them. So, I didn’t understand where the direct outrage was coming from. I, like many others, suggested that women accept responsibility for their safety. It wasn’t until **Annaamika** asked me in the other thread “how was I supposed to protect myself from my dad?” At that point it hit me like a ton of bricks, but the damage had already been done. > > …snipped… > > **Shodan** is giving his point of view and some of you are saying you didn’t ask for it or don’t want to hear it. This is an open forum. By simply participating in it, you accept that any member has the right to say what he/she wants. Like he says, you can either ignore it, report it or respond. However, simply saying “we don’t want to hear what you have to say” is basically saying “Shut up Shodan. You’re an idiot.” That’s not fair. Because it’s patronizing as hell. **MOL** was already soundly spanked for daring to regard a man she’d been talking to for hours as a friend, we were told we should accept that most men are trained to ignore a verbal no and keep trying because we’re all such tricky, dishonest bitches. We know we have to live a life of fearful, delicate, prey-like vulnerable creatures and do everything possible to minimize our attractiveness, our sexuality, and hide our bodies and diminish our existence for our own good. Thanks for the reminder that bad things that happen to women are \*our fault \*for being women. But we’ve been aware that many men blame us for their actions since, you know, Biblical times. Of course, there are just as many guys who chastise us for daring to adjust our clothing to avoid prying eyes, just as many who chastise us for viewing male strangers with a fearful eye, just as many guys to shame us for carrying a defensive weapon, and just as many who reserve the right to catcall us. So forgive us if we don’t buy this “Just trying to help you out, silly girls” bullshit. We’ve got some awesome men in this thread discussing this constructively and some who (albeit clumsily) attempted to explain why men believe that when they perceive “mixed signals” they should override any empathy and understanding in pursuit of satisfying his personal goal of sex. It really sucks to hear that, but at least it’s honest discourse. As to the handful of earnest, helpful, and insightful contributions from men like LHOD, Marley, and a few others: thanks so much. Some people not only get it, they have a unique perspective that helps others get it, too. But you know what answer/advice we didn’t get but explicitly asked for? Is how to protect ourselves from pushy guys who labor under the belief that when we say “no we’re playing a game” and who cop to feeling entitled to overriding a verbal no. Not one of those guys, you included, explained how we could stop unwanted sexual advances. Not one of those guys, including you, would share how they would prepare their daughters for men like them. How do we stop you? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/744 "2013-04-17T18:27:16Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Because it’s patronizing as hell. **MOL** was already soundly spanked for daring to regard a man she’d been talking to for hours as a friend, we were told we should accept that most men are trained to ignore a verbal no and keep trying because we’re all such tricky, dishonest bitches. We know we have to live a life of fearful, delicate, prey-like vulnerable creatures and do everything possible to minimize our attractiveness, our sexuality, and hide our bodies and diminish our existence for our own good. Thanks for the reminder that bad things that happen to women are \*our fault \*for being women. But we’ve been aware that many men blame us for their actions since, you know, Biblical times. > > Of course, there are just as many guys who chastise us for daring to adjust our clothing to avoid prying eyes, just as many who chastise us for viewing male strangers with a fearful eye, just as many guys to shame us for carrying a defensive weapon, and just as many who reserve the right to catcall us. So forgive us if we don’t buy this “Just trying to help you out, silly girls” bullshit. We’ve got some awesome men in this thread discussing this constructively and some who (albeit clumsily) attempted to explain why men believe that when they perceive “mixed signals” they should override any empathy and understanding in pursuit of satisfying his personal goal of sex. It really sucks to hear that, but at least it’s honest discourse. > > As to the handful of earnest, helpful, and insightful contributions from men like LHOD, Marley, and a few others: thanks so much. Some people not only get it, they have a unique perspective that helps others get it, too. > > But you know what answer/advice we didn’t get but explicitly asked for? Is how to protect ourselves from pushy guys who labor under the belief that when we say “no we’re playing a game” and who cop to feeling entitled to overriding a verbal no. Not one of those guys, you included, explained how we could stop unwanted sexual advances. Not one of those guys, including you, would share how they would prepare their daughters for men like them. How do we stop you? Only I can stop me. I get it. The best advice I can give to you is to be steadfast and persistent in your message. All I’m saying is the insults and snark, on a message board forum, are not going to win hearts and minds. Two wrongs don’t make a right. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/745 "2013-04-17T18:31:46Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Only I can stop me. I get it. The best advice I can give to you is to be steadfast and persistent in your message. All I’m saying is the insults and snark, on a message board forum, is not going to work. Not a rhetorical question. I want to know, if you are going to ignore a verbal no, if you are going to read perceived “signals” over actual words and actions, how do we stop you? Burst into tears? Scream? Kick you in the nuts? Before you answer, please remember that many of us (okay, me) are very reluctant to initiate violence with a man, because we’ll most likely lose and get very hurt. Now… what can be done to stop men from pushing us to have sex if we are reluctant or give a clear verbal no? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/746 "2013-04-17T18:33:03Z")
I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/747 "2013-04-17T18:35:53Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Only I can stop me. I get it. The best advice I can give to you is to be steadfast and persistent in your message. All I’m saying is the insults and snark, on a message board forum, are not going to win hearts and minds. Two wrongs don’t make a right. You know, every post you make follows the same damned formula. You apologize profusely for whatever idiocy you just spewed, falling all over yourself to say how you _actually get it now._ You’re so sorry! You’ve seen the light. Then you end with some sort of lecture, chiding everyone else. How about you just apologize and keep the lectures to yourself? Once or twice, it’s fine-- everybody deserves a correction now and then- but you are constantly doing the same damned thing. Again. Stahpit. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/748 "2013-04-17T18:42:08Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > You know, every post you make follows the same damned formula. You apologize profusely for whatever idiocy you just spewed, falling all over yourself to say how you _actually get it now._ You’re so sorry! You’ve seen the light. > > Then you end with some sort of lecture, chiding everyone else. > > How about you just apologize and keep the lectures to yourself? Once or twice, it’s fine-- everybody deserves a correction now and then- but you are constantly doing the same damned thing. Again. Stahpit. Yes, exactly this. But you forgot the self-flagellation for being such a terrible horrible person and deserving all of the mean things everyone said about you. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/749 "2013-04-17T18:43:05Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Yes, exactly this. > But you forgot the self-flagellation for being such a terrible horrible person and deserving all of the mean things everyone said about you. You don’t know me. I’m a great fucking person. I’ve said my peace and I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/750 "2013-04-17T18:45:25Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > **Shodan** is giving his point of view and some of you are saying you didn’t ask for it or don’t want to hear it. This is an open forum. By simply participating in it, you accept that any member has the right to say what he/she wants. Like he says, you can either ignore it, report it or respond. However, simply saying “we don’t want to hear what you have to say” is basically saying “Shut up Shodan. You’re an idiot.” That’s not fair. Bullshit. If Shodan wants to come in late to a conversation, ignoring everything that has gone on before, just to stroke his own ego by posting his smug paternalistic nuggets of “wisdom”, he certainly has the right to do that. What he doesn’t have the right to, and didn’t get in this instance, is for other people to worship and praise him for his brilliance and perspicacity. We could have just said “Shut up, you’re an idiot” to any number of people that have posted here. Instead, various people have put in a lot of time and effort to actually engage and discuss with those posters. Even Shodan, who started out hostile and offensive and went downhill from there. Yeah, sometimes it’s gotten a little snarky, too. As I said somewhere way back when - if you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/751 "2013-04-17T18:51:45Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > You don’t know me. I’m a great fucking person. I’ve said my peace and I’m done. Yes, you keep saying this. You keep saying we don’t know you, you’re such a nice guy, etc. Then you get your epiphany about why everyone’s being mean to you, why the things you said were horrible, why other people were right. That you’ve said your part and you’re just going to bow out. And then you say another dumb thing. Just stop, seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/752 "2013-04-17T18:55:10Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > Oh, I’m sure there are more that I missed. After all, the lists of “Things Women Must Do To Avoid Rape” and “Things Women Must Not Do To Avoid Rape” are endless and ever-changing. > > I’m just waiting to hear from the expert. Voodoo shoes. 😃 If you’re a woman living alone keep a pair of these in view. A pair of large crusty slippers that your huge arse slightly unstable protective biker dude friend/brother/lover you forgot to mention who could show up at any time might wear. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/753 "2013-04-17T19:03:51Z")
You guys, I was just sitting here thinking and it hit me like a ton of bricks. Like, I couldn’t possibly have understood it until this very moment how wrong I was but here I am, aware of the injustice, aware of the _wrong_ of it all. I just. . . I can barely sleep at night with the thought of how wrong I was. I toss and turn in my bed, clutching my pillow and screaming into the darkness, “BUT I AM A GOOD PERSON!” I say these things, but the reality is that my actions here have contradicted the truth of my goodness in a betrayal never before seen in the history of this board or even the world. I deserve every unkind word, every prod, every attack. . . I should have considered the brevity of my actions, of my words against **panaccione**. Friend, if you can find it deep within your heart of hearts to possibly consider giving me another chance, I will do anything. I have nothing but goodness in my soul, but I know I have wronged and am in way, shape, or form deserving of your hand of friendship. But if your character is as strong and noble and true as I know it is and you can forgive me, I will never forget this extension of kindness. But while we’re on the topic, I think you really need to realize how your words are coming across, **panaccione**. You’re lecturing a group of grown women who spend their lives considering these issues, condescending their positions, and diminishing their feelings-- all when their reality is obviously so vastly apart from yours that your empathy meter isn’t even calibrated right. Your prodding is uncalled for, but so is your ridiculously over the top, formulaic, self-centered posting style. Just fucking apologize and leave it at that- lecturing grown ass adults after an apology sort of takes everything away from the apology, don’t you think? Won’t you forgive me? PS: You don’t know me. I’m a great fucking person. I’ve said my peace and I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/754 "2013-04-17T19:35:46Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > You don’t know me. I’m a great fucking person. I’ve said my peace and I’m done. Actually I do know you–from your posts here. Either you’re telling the truth about yourself here, in which case I’ve got very little respect for you, or else you’re lying about yourself on the Internet for kicks, in which case I’ve got very little respect for you. You’ve got one option to increase people’s respect for you here: SHUT UP. No, don’t say “okay.” No, don’t tell me you’re great. No, don’t tell me you see my point. SHUT UP. Every post you’ve made here, and I’m not exaggerating, makes you look worse. You need to SHUT UP. You may, of course, post again–I can’t stop you. But you’ll undoubtedly come across as an even greater, even more clueless creep. Stop posting. Spend a long time reading, and guess what? You don’t need to tell us how much you learned! Nobody cares! After you’ve read for awhile, dip your toes in: try your hand at posting in an innocuous thread, and see if you can do it in a way that others appreciate. See if you can post in a way that continues and improves an existing conversation, instead of a way that screams, “LOOK AT ME AND MY HOBBY HORSE, LET’S TALK ABOUT MEEEEEE!” If folks respond positively, well done you! If they respond poorly, oh well, too bad, here’s an idea, SHUT UP. You can read some more, and awhile later, you can try again. But for now, I’ve got some advice for you, and it rhymes with butt cup. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/755 "2013-04-17T20:00:22Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > You guys, I was just sitting here thinking and it hit me like a ton of bricks. Like, I couldn’t possibly have understood it until this very moment how wrong I was but here I am, aware of the injustice, aware of the _wrong_ of it all. I just. . . I can barely sleep at night with the thought of how wrong I was. I toss and turn in my bed, clutching my pillow and screaming into the darkness, “BUT I AM A GOOD PERSON!” I say these things, but the reality is that my actions here have contradicted the truth of my goodness in a betrayal never before seen in the history of this board or even the world. I deserve every unkind word, every prod, every attack. . . I should have considered the brevity of my actions, of my words against **panaccione**. Friend, if you can find it deep within your heart of hearts to possibly consider giving me another chance, I will do anything. I have nothing but goodness in my soul, but I know I have wronged and am in way, shape, or form deserving of your hand of friendship. But if your character is as strong and noble and true as I know it is and you can forgive me, I will never forget this extension of kindness. > > But while we’re on the topic, I think you really need to realize how your words are coming across, **panaccione**. You’re lecturing a group of grown women who spend their lives considering these issues, condescending their positions, and diminishing their feelings-- all when their reality is obviously so vastly apart from yours that your empathy meter isn’t even calibrated right. Your prodding is uncalled for, but so is your ridiculously over the top, formulaic, self-centered posting style. Just fucking apologize and leave it at that- lecturing grown ass adults after an apology sort of takes everything away from the apology, don’t you think? > > Won’t you forgive me? > > PS: You don’t know me. I’m a great fucking person. I’ve said my peace and I’m done. \<3 forever ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/756 "2013-04-17T20:04:53Z")
Don’t forget to copy all the posts from the Pit where people were mean to you in an unrelated thread in ATMB to ask everybody what was up with people in the Pit being mean to you. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/757 "2013-04-17T20:10:01Z")
On it. I’m taking my sandy vagina with me all the way to the top! ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/758 "2013-04-17T20:13:03Z")
I wanna tell somebody to go butt cup now. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/759 "2013-04-17T20:16:40Z")
Reporting post 757 for terrorist threats. brb ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/760 "2013-04-18T01:39:19Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I don’t want to minimize your feelings. That said, man, the feeling **I** am getting is, how on earth can I possibly do anything to protect my DAUGHTER from these people? I’m raising her to be strong and assertive, and know that no means no and fighting back is allowed and I will always have her back if she needs support…but that doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme. > > After participating in this thread, I look at my two-year-old and all I can think is, “She’s gorgeous, and there are _those guys_ out there just waiting for her.” > > Swear to god, that kid’s going to know how to use a knife before she hits middle school. I understand. I have two very small nieces, and a few little cousins who are on the cusp of the dating world, and the thought of them swimming in the goddamn shark tank with _those guys_ absolutely horrifies me. But, you know, your daughter’s age and attractiveness ultimately have dick-all to do with how much danger she’s in from _those guys._ They don’t only try their bullshit on pretty girls, and they don’t go away when you turn 25. Your wife, your sister, your mom, that nice lady who always checks you out at the convenience store, the teachers at your daughter’s pre-school, the moms of the kids she plays with…they’re all at just as much risk from\* those guys\* as your daughter will ever be. And the answer isn’t to teach them all to use a knife, or even to make them strong and assertive and all that. Those things are all Good Things in general, yes, but in this particular context they’re really just more points on the Assault Avoidance for Women Checklist. The answer is to let _those guys_ know that their bullshit is, well, bullshit. To respond to the “well, you can’t blame a guy for trying (again)” attitude with a hearty “what the ever-loving FUCK is wrong with you?” Shame the fuckers just like we do racists and homophobes. **That** is what you can do to protect your little girl. You’ve got a good 10 years before she sticks her toes into the shark tank. Ten years of work on changing male attitudes can do a lot toward cleaning up the water in that tank and making it something fit for her, and every one else’s little girl, to swim in. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/761 "2013-04-18T02:51:36Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > The answer is to let _those guys_ know that their bullshit is, well, bullshit. To respond to the “well, you can’t blame a guy for trying (again)” attitude with a hearty “what the ever-loving FUCK is wrong with you?” Shame the fuckers just like we do racists and homophobes. **That** is what you can do to protect your little girl. Already got that covered. It might be macho bullshit, but I used to be the guy who stayed sober at frat parties to make sure shit didn’t go down–and frankly, the one guy we ever caught trying to use a roofie didn’t go home in one piece. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=39)