# Guys, Y U no listen? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424 "2013-04-11T17:32:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/161 "2013-04-12T02:58:40Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Are you arguing that a woman inviting a man to her apartment late at night on a flimsy pretense isn’t a signal she wants to get stuck real good, or are you arguing that this particular premise was relatively sturdy? I’m arguing that she tried to be nice to a man after making it clear that she wasn’t interested in sex. Therefore extending courtesy to men is always wrong because, as you insist, it will be misinterpreted because men can’t be trusted to believe the word “no”. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/162 "2013-04-12T03:03:54Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’m arguing that she tried to be nice to a man after making it clear that she wasn’t interested in sex. Therefore extending courtesy to men is always wrong because, as you insist, it will be misinterpreted because men can’t be trusted to believe the word “no”. Extending legitimate courtesy to men doesn’t send a message. Extending a courtesy that involves him coming up to your apartment when there are many other far more logical solutions to the situation does. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/163 "2013-04-12T03:06:03Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Extending legitimate courtesy to men doesn’t send a message. Extending a courtesy that involves him coming up to your apartment when there are many other far more logical solutions to the situation does. Is English your first language? The word “no” isn’t a signal, isn’t debatable, unclear, and has only one meaning. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/164 "2013-04-12T03:06:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > FFS, we do have it, and yes, it’s illegal, and yes, there’s some modicum of danger attached to it. But we do have prostitution in our world, and judging from the local police blotter enough customers to keep a crapload of prostitutes in business. Whether it’s illegal, whether it’s dangerous has nothing to do with whether we have it. [quote=“Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness, post:154, topic:655424”] No, we don’t. It’s illegal and dangerous. So, for a lot of people it is not an option. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I agree that prostitution would be better if it were legalized and regulated, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the situation here. Being unable to obtain safe, legal sex with a preferred partner is beside the point andd focuses attention on the wrong place. It should, instead, be focused on changing our culture such that assholes like this are universally mocked instead of condoned by elbows to the ribs and leering, “Can’t blame a guy for trying!” bullshit. I agree, to an extent. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Attempts to understand him as a poor little blue ball are part of the problem. I disagree. In fact, I think that attitude is a part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/165 "2013-04-12T03:06:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Extending legitimate courtesy to men doesn’t send a message. Extending a courtesy that involves him coming up to your apartment when there are many other far more logical solutions to the situation does. any bitch who don’t taser me is askin’ fer it, i reckin ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/166 "2013-04-12T03:09:22Z")
I’ve actually been in a situation where I was invited to a woman’s apartment and it was established we would not be having sex. I’ll admit I was disappointed; things had been getting hot and heavy at that point and I was excited about the possibility of having sex with her. But I respected her boundaries- all I could really hope for was that she would change her mind on her end, but I didn’t think any amount of begging, cajoling, pawing, etc would change her mind. Since it was pretty clear to her that I was respectful of her boundaries, she offered to cook me dinner (which was excellent) and let me crash on her couch since it was very late and I was extremely tired. While I was disappointed in not having sex I didn’t see myself accomplishing anything beyond getting kicked out by being pushy about it. The other time I was invited to a woman’s apartment it was explicit we were going to have sex, she said over the phone, “Bring wine and condoms”. So there were no ‘mixed messages’ there. But had she decided against it, I would have respected that (because again, what do I gain from being pushy? Nothing.) I figure the women that wouldn’t be comfortable having me in their apartments/having me know where they live declined to invite me. That’s fine. I’m not going to worm my way into a woman’s heart (and vagina) by being a creepy asshole. That isn’t to say I act like this meek, shy eunich around women. If I like a woman I’m on a date with I’ll try and be in a position where I can kiss/touch/etc her but _only if she is comfortable with it_. The moment she says, “stop” “No” or freezes up, I stop. I don’t think its that hard to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/167 "2013-04-12T03:09:46Z")
> [@pannacione](#): > > I disagree. In fact, I think that attitude is a part of the problem. the problem being that you forgot how to pleasure your own dong?? that’s fucking wack ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/168 "2013-04-12T03:11:57Z")
Screwed up that quote ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/169 "2013-04-12T03:17:25Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Extending legitimate courtesy to men doesn’t send a message. Extending a courtesy that involves him coming up to your apartment when there are many other far more logical solutions to the situation does. And yet you persist, in the face of her telling you otherwise, that she was presenting him with a flimsy pretense to get him into the apartment to fuck. But rather than him, and you, admitting to misinterpreting her being nice as an invitation to bone, you continue to maintain that this is literally the only possibility. Astounding. **panaccione** , this might be the problem you’re seeking to solve. Not sexual frustration, but an inability to take someone’s own explanation for their behavior in lieu of the message you wish they were sending. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/170 "2013-04-12T03:19:06Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’m arguing that she tried to be nice to a man after making it clear that she wasn’t interested in sex. Therefore extending courtesy to men is always wrong because, as you insist, it will be misinterpreted because men can’t be trusted to believe the word “no”. Do you not understand the concept of mixed signals? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/171 "2013-04-12T03:21:17Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I disagree. In fact, I think that attitude is a part of the problem. Please define the problem. If you say “We need to find a way to obligate women to satisfy sexually frustrated men” I’m going to laugh you off the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/172 "2013-04-12T03:22:17Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Do you not understand the concept of mixed signals? Do you understand that no means no?Tell you what, since it’s unclear for you. See if you can set up the same situation, and force yourself on your courteous but disinterested date. Let us know how the courts treat you, okay? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/173 "2013-04-12T03:25:56Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Please define the problem. If you say “We need to find a way to obligate women to satisfy sexually frustrated men” I’m going to laugh you off the internet. No, that’s absurd. But simply dismissing them and saying “fuck them. Figure it out on your own” obviously isn’t working. In fact, it’s proving to be downright dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/174 "2013-04-12T03:26:45Z")
Whoa. What the fuck happened in this thread? I’ll offer my thought process. I’m sure I’ll be stating the obvious. Typically, yes, being invited up by a woman to her apartment that you have no prior relationship with (i.e., are not long-time BFFs or something like that), is a positive sign that hanky-panky might be on the menu. It’s not a green light, but it’s an encouraging signal. But when it’s preceded by the circumstances of the bar closing, it raining like cats and dogs outside, clear statements of how nothing is going to happen, and a simple offer of hospitality while the date waits for a cab, I can’t see how any man but the most “optimistic” could read that at anything but face value. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/175 "2013-04-12T03:30:20Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > No, that’s absurd. But simply dismissing them and saying “fuck them. Figure it out on your own” obviously isn’t working. In fact, it’s proving to be downright dangerous. And you think the solution is to offer women to them? In my opinion fuck them, let them figure it out on their own is the perfect solution since the problem is entirely of their own making. No other human is responsible for someone else’s sexual gratification. Period. How in the world could you possibly think otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/176 "2013-04-12T03:35:51Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Do you understand that no means no?Tell you what, since it’s unclear for you. See if you can set up the same situation, and force yourself on your courteous but disinterested date. Let us know how the courts treat you, okay? The guy got mixed signals, came to the wrong conclusion, made his move, and apparently left without much of a fuss after he got shot down. He’s not exactly what I call a monster. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/177 "2013-04-12T03:36:22Z")
Missed the edit window. Put it this way: if **MOL** had said, “hey, I’m digging the conversation, the bar’s about to close. Let’s go back to my place, I got some Old Forester, we could continue our talk, and then we can call you a cab,” I could see some room for possible confusion. That’s not a “green light,” but I would construe it as possibly a positive sign. But the exchange as given in the OP? No. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/178 "2013-04-12T03:36:31Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > And you think the solution is to offer women to them? In my opinion fuck them, let them figure it out on their own is the perfect solution since the problem is entirely of their own making. No other human is responsible for someone else’s sexual gratification. Period. How in the world could you possibly think otherwise? Prostitution would be entirely voluntary. Just like any other job. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/179 "2013-04-12T03:46:08Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Prostitution would be entirely voluntary. Just like any other job. Sure, okay, let’s pretend that men “deserve” government approved retail nooky. You really think the MRA army will be content with paying for what most women can get for free? Do you have colander on ignore or something? The optimal “solution” for sexual frustration is masturbation. And if you seriously think that the state of being horny is worthy of government intervention then I doubt that any dialogue here will satisfy you. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424/180 "2013-04-12T04:01:35Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > \*Signals \* include twirling hair, holding eye contact, smiling, touching, and displaying body language that indicates an interest in getting physically closer to another person. The word "no or stating that sex is not going to happen is not a “signal”; it’s a fact that shouldn’t be tested. _Signals_ also include breathing, moving, speaking, not speaking, and having a vagina. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-y-u-no-listen/655424.md?page=10)