# Guys You'd LIKE to Support for the Hall of Fame... but Can't **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 4, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969 "2003-12-04T16:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/21 "2003-12-06T22:59:55Z")
My man would have to be Dave Stieb. He was amazing for awhile, but overall, the resume doesn’t get him past a lot of other guys. ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/22 "2003-12-06T23:06:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > \*\*It’s a tough call- a player should have been _dominant_ at his position during his era in order to get in, and that’s a tall order in this day and age. As one sports commentator put it, if you have to justify your choice, they don’t belong in the Hall. > > I’m not sure it’s even a number of seasons, but what he did with those he had. > > For me, I have always loved Ken Brett (brother of HOFer George Brett), but I know he’ll never be in the Hall, despite a passion for the game shared by few players today. Granted, he is represented in the Hall with some records, such as being the youngest pitcher to ever pitch in a World Series game, and throwing the pitch that Hank Aaron hit out for his 700th HR! Ken was a left-handed pitcher who could also hit the hell out of the ball. > > Who else do I love but am not holding my breath for? > > Mike Scioscia > Brian Downing > Bo Jackson > Jim Edmonds (but that’s just 'cause I’m friends with his mom!) \*\* Scioscia is close to a lock IMHO. Best hitting catcher of all time. Although his career isn’t over, one I’d put on this list is Mike Mussina. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/23 "2003-12-07T00:45:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bucky \* > \*\*Bonds has told fans they need to get a life when they asked for an autograph or a photo–these are Giants fans, mind you. (ESPN magazine). He has some other “richard” instances, although he isn’t as heinous as Cobb by any means. > \*\* Not even in the same universe as Cobb. ESPN magaazine…to be honest, I don’t trust sportwriters (there’s a reason why Bonds isn’t always nice to sportswriters…they’re idiots). They really have very little credibility. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*Well, he didn’t make any friends when he told everyone he was better than Babe Ruth… \*\* Got a cite for that? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rexnervous \* > \*\*Scioscia is close to a lock IMHO. Best hitting catcher of all time. \*\* Confusing Piazza with Scioscia? ---
**Author:** ![doctordoowop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecc23a/32.png) [@doctordoowop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doctordoowop)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/24 "2003-12-07T00:50:06Z")
Another LA local mentioned above-Earl Battey-just passed. My choice is Gil Hodges. ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/25 "2003-12-07T02:11:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yookeroo \* > \*\* > Confusing Piazza with Scioscia? \*\* err, maybe. Look, there’s a bird! slinks away from the thread ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/26 "2003-12-07T02:22:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yookeroo \* > **Got a cite for that?** Sure. This is what he actually said: > [@](#): > > And if it does happen [reaching Willie Mays on the all-time HR list], the only number I care about is Babe Ruth’s. Because as a left-handed hitter, I wiped him out. That’s it. And in the baseball world, Babe Ruth’s everything, right? I got his slugging percentage and I’ll take his home runs and that’s it. Don’t talk about him no more. [http://espn.go.com/mlb/allstar03/s/2003/0716/1581348.html](http://espn.go.com/mlb/allstar03/s/2003/0716/1581348.html) Bonds was saying that once he passes Ruth, no one should even talk about him as being one of the greats anymore, since he (Bonds) would have passed him in a couple of categories. It was a crass statement. ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/27 "2003-12-07T02:33:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by A Curious Writer \* > \*\*Although, Rackensack, I think Jack Morris does belong in the Hall, because the game changed in his time, and while I am not happy about it, all those 17-18 wins easons were as good as 20 used to be. \*\* I won’t say you’re wrong about Morris belonging in the Hall, but I think if he does there’s several other guys who do as well, and you’ve gotta go back and pick them up also. That’s the thing about having no hard-and-fast objective criteria for these things; it’s all in where you draw the line. As it stands now, deriving the criteria from the characteristics of the guys who’ve been voted in and those who haven’t, it looks to me like he falls just barely short. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/28 "2003-12-07T05:20:06Z")
Piazza the best hitting catcher of all time? He is certainly dominant among current catchers. Huge home run numbers in cavernous ballparks, and he hasn’t struck out more than 93 times in any season (he walked 81 times that year, with 36 homers and 105 RBI). Compare these two- Mike Piazza- 1461 games, 358 home runs, lifetime batting average .319, lifetime OPS .959. Ivan Rodriguez- 1623 games, 231 home runs, lifetime BA .304, lifetime OPS .832 But Piazza has never been considered a HOF catcher in the (historically) two most important catagories for a catcher- defense and calling a game. He is an outstanding athlete, but perhaps not a classic great catcher. Pudge gets my vote for best catcher of all time- he changes the game when he’s in it. He calls the best game, period, and he can throw out anybody. Scioscia may have been the best at understanding pitching and pitchers, blocked the plate like no-one else, and was once knocked unconscious at the plate but still held onto the ball. Johnny Bench- already in the HOF. 'Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![HomerIU](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HomerIU](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HomerIU)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/29 "2003-12-07T06:13:40Z")
I think Mattingly should be in. ``` This category is about Pete Rose for me. He should be in the HOF. No doubt he was a great hitter, great player. I wish I could say, "It was just gambling" and conclude he should be in. Ten years ago I felt that way. Anymore, however, he just pisses me off. If he were to just admit he gambled and did just about everything they said he did, they'd probably let him off the hook and let hin in. However, he just won't do it despite what seems like a large amount of proof that he is lying through his teeth when he denies it. Different sport : Terrel Davis. In his prime, he was one of the best ever to play at his position. However, his "prime" was just too brief to make it in. Maybe four good years. Not enough. Same with Kurt Warner. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Rainbowthief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4bbf92/32.png) [@Rainbowthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rainbowthief)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/30 "2003-12-07T06:34:27Z")
I still think Bernie Williams belongs. He’s won Gold Gloves, batting titles, has played on World Series winners and has played well in the postseason (former ALCS MVP). He’s never won an AL MVP award, but the bulk of those have gone to big power hitters lately (Ken Griffey, Juan Gonzales, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, etc). One Hall of Famer that he compares well with is Al Kaline of the Tigers. Below is a comparison of the two in some key categories: ```auto Bernie Kaline Seasons 13 22 Average .305 .297 HR .241 399 RBI 1062 1583 Hits 1950 3007 20 HR seasons 6 9 100 RBI seasons 5 3 Slugging percentage .492 .480 OPS .882 855 ``` Kaline obviously has played considerably longer than Williams, but Bernie’s career is not over yet, and I think he can come back next year and have another 3-4 productive years, which would give him 16-17 seasons and get him closer in home runs, RBI and hits. It’s unlikely that his career batting will fall below Kaline’s because if his productivity falls that low, he’ll either retire or be forced to become a platoon player with fewer at-bats. ```auto Hernandez Smith Mazeroski Seasons 17 19 17 Avg .296 .262 .260 HR 162 28 138 RBI 1071 793 853 Hits 2182 2460 2016 OPS .821 .666 .667 ``` Another guy I think deserves to be in Cooperstown is Keith Hernandez. He was far and away the best defensive player at his position during his career the way Ozzie Smith was among shortstops or Bill Mazeroski among outfielders. They’re in the Hall for their defensive greatness despite some anemic offensive numbers, yet Hernandez is punished for not hitting enough. Sure, first basemen are expected to hit, certainly more than shortstops, but Hernandez _did_ hit better than Smith and Mazeroski, _a lot_ better. Enough, in my opinion, to make up for the fact that he played a position that carries higher offensive expectations. ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/31 "2003-12-07T06:39:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > **Piazza the best hitting catcher of all time? He is certainly dominant among current catchers. Huge home run numbers in cavernous ballparks, and he hasn’t struck out more than 93 times in any season (he walked 81 times that year, with 36 homers and 105 RBI).** Piazza’s never been a particular favorite of mine, but I can’t find any way to slice and dice the numbers to come up with any conclusion other than that he is in fact the greatest hitting catcher ever. The other candidates would be who? Bench, Berra, Fisk, Dickey, and who else? Compared to any of them, his career OPS is from 60 to 150 points higher; he has as many home runs as Berra (exactly as many after 2003, as it happens) in seven fewer seasons, and could pass both Fisk and Bench next year if he’s healthy (needs 23 to pass Fisk, 31 to pass Bench). Only Dickey is even close in OBP (Dickey=.382, Piazza=.388). Dickey’s ratio of outs to plate appearances is slightly better (~63% as opposed to ~64% for Piazza, Fisk, Berra and Bench are all between 67%-69%), but he had much less power. How much longer he’ll be a catcher is obviously an open question, and there’s no question he’s contributed less defensively than any of the quartet I’ve compared him to above, but there’s also no question in my mind he’s done more to help his teams offensively than anyone else who’s ever played behind the plate. ---
**Author:** ![Rainbowthief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4bbf92/32.png) [@Rainbowthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rainbowthief)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/32 "2003-12-07T06:41:40Z")
Aw, my chart looks all screwed up! **EJsGirl** , I agree 100% about Pudge. I was really pulling for him to win the NL MVP award this year because I felt that what he did for the Marlins–especially their pitching staff–was more valuable than anything Barry Bonds did for the Giants. ---
**Author:** ![Mott\_the\_Hoople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Mott\_the\_Hoople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mott_the_Hoople)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/33 "2003-12-07T06:48:44Z")
Gil Hodges and Rocky Colavito… ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/34 "2003-12-07T20:59:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*Sure. This is what he actually said: > > [http://espn.go.com/mlb/allstar03/s/2003/0716/1581348.html](http://espn.go.com/mlb/allstar03/s/2003/0716/1581348.html) > > Bonds was saying that once he passes Ruth, no one should even talk about him as being one of the greats anymore, since he (Bonds) would have passed him in a couple of categories. It was a crass statement. \*\* I was asking for a cite where Bonds says he’s better than Ruth. Nowhere in this quote does he say that. But did you know that Bonds was [laughing](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/15/SP47898.DTL) when he made those Ruth comments? This is a good example of why sportwriters are next to useless. Bonds was joking when he made those remarks about Ruth. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > **Piazza the best hitting catcher of all time?** Without a doubt. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > \*\*He is certainly dominant among current catchers. \*\* You mean all catchers. Huge home run numbers in cavernous ballparks, and he hasn’t struck out more than 93 times in any season (he walked 81 times that year, with 36 homers and 105 RBI). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > \*\* > > But Piazza has never been considered a HOF catcher in the (historically) two most important catagories for a catcher- defense and calling a game. He is an outstanding athlete, but perhaps not a classic great catcher.\*\* You have any evidence that he’s not good at calling games? I know with the Dodgers, his CERA was better than the other catchers. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > \*\*Pudge gets my vote for best catcher of all time- he changes the game when he’s in it. He calls the best game, period, and he can throw out anybody. > > Scioscia may have been the best at understanding pitching and pitchers, blocked the plate like no-one else, and was once knocked unconscious at the plate but still held onto the ball. > > Johnny Bench- already in the HOF. 'Nuff said. \*\* Piazza’s offense might be enough to make him the best ever. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/35 "2003-12-07T21:07:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yookeroo \* > **I was asking for a cite where Bonds says he’s better than Ruth. Nowhere in this quote does he say that. But did you know that Bonds was [laughing](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/15/SP47898.DTL) when he made those Ruth comments? This is a good example of why sportwriters are next to useless. Bonds was joking when he made those remarks about Ruth.** So that article claims. Funny how you’re quick to accept that one but not one in which he’s **not** described as “laughing.” Very funny indeed, no pun intended. Bonds has never been known as a jovial sort, so if he were indeed laughing it’s interesting that virtually no one but one of the hometown papers reported it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Bucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bucky)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/36 "2003-12-07T21:14:21Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Yookeroo \* \*\*I was asking for a cite where Bonds says he’s better than Ruth. Nowhere in this quote does he say that. But did you know that Bonds was [laughing](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/15/SP47898.DTL) when he made those Ruth comments? This is a good example of why sportwriters are next to useless. Bonds was joking when he made those remarks about Ruth. As you are fond of saying, Yookeroo, “got a cite for that?” Got a cite for the stupidity of all sportswriters? Got a cite for the stupidity of bonds’ team-mates? No, Bonds isn’t evil in the sense of Cobb, but you have to be living in an alternate dimension to portray him as some swell guy who’s just–boo hoo–misunderstood by a bunch of “idiots” who normally fawn over anyone who plays well. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/37 "2003-12-07T21:32:12Z")
Bobby Bonds. 6 30+ home run seasons. 7 40+ stolen base seasons. But he was only selected to three all-star teams. Also, he faded _very_ quickly at the end of his career, giving him just run of the mill career stats. Longevity would have helped him. Barry is Bobby on steroids. ---
**Author:** ![Bucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bucky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/38 "2003-12-08T19:50:44Z")
My error, there is a cite for bonds laughing as he said it. that doesn’t mean he was joking. Why do I hate him (as a player)? 1. I can’t stand anyone watching all of their damn home runs. 2. I despise people pointing to the sky when they do something athletic. I might give him a pass for it after his father’s death, but before that it is preening of a blasphemous nature. 3. I hate that he dogs it in the outfield and still wins GG awards. That’s pretty much enough for me to dislike an athlete. Back to the regular thread… ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/39 "2003-12-09T18:55:55Z")
Again, Piazza is the best hitting catcher, but IMO not the best all-around catcher. The fact that offense has become the main focus of the game these days will probably get him into the Hall, if he can catch for one more full season. With his physical problems, he might move to first next year and that might hurt his chances. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969/40 "2003-12-09T20:20:15Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Bucky \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yookeroo \* > \*\*I was asking for a cite where Bonds says he’s better than Ruth. Nowhere in this quote does he say that. But did you know that Bonds was [laughing](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/15/SP47898.DTL) when he made those Ruth comments? This is a good example of why sportwriters are next to useless. Bonds was joking when he made those remarks about Ruth. > As you are fond of saying, Yookeroo, “got a cite for that?” > > Got a cite for the stupidity of all sportswriters? Got a cite for the stupidity of bonds’ team-mates? > > No, Bonds isn’t evil in the sense of Cobb, but you have to be living in an alternate dimension to portray him as some swell guy who’s just–boo hoo–misunderstood by a bunch of “idiots” who normally fawn over anyone who plays well. \*\* Never said anything about him being a swell guy. Nor did I say he was misunderstood by sportswriters. He can be ana sshole to sportswriters, so they probably don’t feel the need to fawn. I never said anything about the intellifence of his teammates. Does anyone really need a cite that sportwriters are stupid? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > \*\*Again, Piazza is the best hitting catcher, but IMO not the best all-around catcher. > > The fact that offense has become the main focus of the game these days will probably get him into the Hall, if he can catch for one more full season. With his physical problems, he might move to first next year and that might hurt his chances. \*\* There’s no era when Piazza isn’t a lock for the Hall. And his chances right now are beyond being hurt. He’s an easy first ballot choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/guys-youd-like-to-support-for-the-hall-of-fame-but-cant/216969.md?page=3)