# Gypsies in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 24, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795 "2004-02-24T00:43:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/41 "2004-02-25T15:21:25Z")
**Flying\_Monk** : The people involved in that scam may be Traveller, or Romani, or neither. Police departments will often use the term ‘gypsy’ to mean a transient lifestyle rather than an ethnicity. It’s kinda like the drivers of ‘gypsy cabs’ don’t actually have to be Romani. An example from [the Northbridge Police Department](http://www.northbridgepolice.com/crimetips.htm): > [@](#): > > A few years ago Northbridge was visited by transient burglars, commonly referred to as “gypsy burglars” and Northbridge was no exception. The term gypsy is defined as: “to live or roam like a Gypsy.” Another from [Marco Island Sun Times](http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7112183&BRD=2256&PAG=461&dept_id=455823&rfi=6): > [@](#): > > Gypsy burglars is a loose term, explained Reinke, and is used to describe transient burglars who target upscale areas. In these incidences, the criminals blend into the surrounding and could be white or hispanic, but traditionally gypsies are of Eastern European decent. One interesting article I just found in relation to the US is [Travellers and Gypsies Face Harassment](http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/harass.htm). The book, License to Steal, is mentioned: > [@](#): > > While there are Travellers and Gypsies who do commit illegal acts, it is a gross over generalization to include all members of these groups, including the law abiding, as criminal. In their book, License to Steal: Traveling Con Artist: Their Games, Their Rules – Your Money, Dennis Marlock and John Dowling readily admit that > > Most Gypsies … have indeed assimilated but without giving up their ethnic identity, their language, or their heritage. They have joined the labor force, own homes, send their sons and daughters to college, vote, pay taxes, and serve in the armed forces. > > The authors then proceed to complete their book about Gypsy crimes. The fact is that every ethnic group has its shady personalities, but that does not result in the listing of any and all members of a group as having criminal intent. > > A Major Rowland who is cited as an “expert” on Traveller criminal activity estimated that less than 10% of the Travellers in his area are engaged in criminal activity. It continues: > [@](#): > > The lumping of all Travellers and Gypsies into the category of those having criminal intent is understandably a concern for the majority of Travellers and Gypsies throughout the United States. The N.A.A.C.P. would be outraged if all African Americans in a community were classified and listed as potential criminals. The A.D.L. would be screaming our ears off if a local community or state were to warn its citizenry and law enforcement officers to be on the look out for criminal Jews. La Raza would be appalled if a crime alert to citizens stated “Alert: Mexican Thieves on the Prowl.” But when it comes to Travellers and Gypsies, even the A.C.L.U. seems to look the other way. > > It is obvious that if you are a Traveller or “Gypsy,” the media and some law enforcement agencies are doing whatever is necessary to scuttle the American dream for select groups on the flimsy and bigoted notion that all members of the group represent a criminal element in society. > > Some law enforcement officials may argue that the term Gypsy refers to a wanderer and does not indicate any particular ethnic group. However, Gypsy does indeed denote an ethnic group in common parlance. Yet another definition of Gypsy as used by some is that of dishonest Romani. Here there is admission that the term relates to an ethnic group, but it is argued that Gypsy only defines those individual members who are engaged in criminal activity. According to Marlock and Dowling Gypsy refers to criminal Romani as Mafia refers to criminal Sicilians. However, the application of this comparison does not hold since Mafia has never been a synonym for Sicilian. > > … > > There are a number of people engage in scams, thefts, and burglaries often described as “Gypsy crimes,” yet these people are in no way associated with these groups. For example, not all palmists, astrologers, or fortune tellers are “Gypsies.” In fact, most are not “Gypsies.” ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/42 "2004-02-25T16:08:29Z")
The biggest news I remember about the Travellers around Augusta was a case or two of a 12-year-old girl being married off. I don’t know much about them otherwise, but I must say that’s not the most encouraging sort of thing to know about a group. Occasionally you’d see them around town, and they were very obvious, because even the little girls had their hair done and a ton of makeup on. And that’s about all I know, except that they had the usual bad reputation. I have no idea how much of that was earned, but they seem to be an odd group of people. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/43 "2004-02-25T16:25:26Z")
IRL, to my knowledge, I have never met an American Gypsy. But I remember something a man once said about his Rom buddy. He had a good friend who was a gypsy, who lived somewhere near the PA/MD border. I can’t recall what the guy did, but I remember that it was some aspect of metalworking-- welding, bicycle repair, something like that. One thing that’s stuck with me is that the man and his family did not make it a habit to announce their ethnicity to just anyone. The guy noticed that when he told acquantances that he was a Gypsy, they tended to clutch their purses and feel for their wallets. They looked at him differently. What that story means is that I could have met Gypsies. Since they wouldn’t be wearing colorful headscarves with dangling gold coins, I’d have no idea. > [@conczepts](#): > > In the downtown Seattle courthouse they have scheduled Gypsy days so that the gypsies know when to be in town to settle their legal business. I’m curious about this. I can’t find a mention of this on [the King County website](http://www.metrokc.gov/legal.htm). Do you have any info? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/44 "2004-02-25T18:05:44Z")
My experience with Gypsys has been strange. I have camped with some in Yugoslavia ('86) and there was nothing remarkable to report there. They just seemed like a big extended family sitting around a campfire-eating, laughing, conversing- a scene worthy of a painting, \* Gypsy Campfire\*. They did seem extremely poor and rag-tag (a reflection of most of Communist/Socialist Yugoslavia at that time). Most of the Yugoslavians had it pretty bad but the Gypsys seemed even worse off. A small band, again what seemed an extended family, took up residence at a Hotel I worked at (Paris and Nicki are the heiresses.). On a couple of occasions, I was harrassed by a group of the Gypsy children while I was working - Mostly evil eyes and obvious insults or curses in the Rom language whilst swarming about me. I just smiled and, as someone interested in foreign languages/linguistics, marked their language and stored away some new culture and interesting speech patterns, there also seemed to be some secret subtext through very subtle gestures and body language between the group. I honest to God think they were trying to set up a pocket pick, or just practicing- dunno. I delivered a huge spread (Room Service) to the Gypsy King’s room and he pulled out the biggest wad of cash I’ve ever seen and tipped me rather well. I heard a rumor later that they had gotten into trouble shoplifting at the shopping center across the street fom the Hotel, don’t know if that’s true or not. It does seem like their reputation precedes them, however fair or unfair the prejuduce. Here’s an interesting link [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma\_and\_Sinti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_and_Sinti) ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/45 "2004-02-25T19:05:20Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > My dad, who was police sgt., promptly arrested two (randomly chosen) gypsies. Working in cahoots with the district magistrate, bail for the pair was set at some insanely high figure. […] > Are there good gypsies? None ever came through my home town. Can’t say I blame them. I hope I never go there either. In the context of the removal of local authority requirement to provide acocmmodation for Gypsies and Travellers in the UK, it seemed like a smart idea for Gypsies who want to continue their traditional lifestyle to buy their own land on which they could live. Sadly, it has proved impossible to get planning permission, and families have repeatedly been evicted by the councils _from their own land_ ([example from BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2395679.stm)), often resulting in complete destruction of their homes with no remedy. Since this attempt to comply with society’s requirements while maintaining their culture has been refused, the question needs to be repeated: “where are they supposed to go?” ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/46 "2004-02-25T20:04:03Z")
Dop the gypsies in the UK run the “fortune telling” racket? That seems to be a major occupation of the rom in the USA. There is one such clan, in the town that I live in. They occupy a house which advertises their services on a sign outside. I’m told they are of the “bimbo” family (apparently a gypsy surname). Whether their activities goe beyond this. I don’t know…but it would seem to me that fortune telling would not be an especially lucrative business these days. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/47 "2004-02-25T21:19:01Z")
Just a reminder that we don’t want a debate about who does or doesn’t pay their fair share of taxes, who can or can’t be trusted, etc. Let’s stick to verifiable facts about population statistics, arrest rates, terminology (gypsy vs. traveller), etc. bibliophage moderator GQ ---
**Author:** ![Expo1001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e9a140/32.png) [@Expo1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Expo1001)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/48 "2004-02-25T22:13:01Z")
They are people, just like anyone else. My family has been friend with a family of Gypsys since before I was born. When I was a baby, a Gypsy saved my life. It’s actualy a weird story: After that happened, he offered to buy me from my Mom. He was going to trade her a brand new corvette, but she wouldn’t go for it. I still see them occasionaly, they come into my area every now and then. They are good people, and have very strong cultural beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/49 "2004-02-26T00:00:20Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > Sadly, it has proved impossible to get planning permission, and families have repeatedly been evicted by the councils _from their own land_ ([example from BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2395679.stm)), often resulting in complete destruction of their homes with no remedy. As you point out, whilst they owned the land _they did not have planning permission_ to form a settlement there. You or I could buy a piece of land anywhere in the country, but we can’t do whatever we like with it … it’s the law of the land. As I see it, the Travellers are being treated no different to anyone else in this respect. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/50 "2004-02-26T00:42:09Z")
> [@Shrinking Violet](#): > > As I see it, the Travellers are being treated no different to anyone else in this respect. Apart from the fact that while 80% of all planning permission applications are approved, 90% of applications submitted by ‘Gypsies’ or Travellers are refused. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/51 "2004-02-26T01:03:09Z")
Also, regarding Woodside, from [here:](http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/11/45933.html) > [@](#): > > The site was bought with planning permission, granted in 1990, for a caravan park, including a permanent residence for the warden, utility block outbuildings and plots for a minimum of 152 tourers (caravans). > > The man who applied for permission apparently had friends in the Council and the Planning Department. Since the Gypsies have come, erecting only garden sheds and toilet blocks and asking to keep 54 tourers here, the Council has tried everything it can to revoke permission, from denying that there IS any permission, to lying in court by claiming that the site is on a flood plane (since proven to be false). In fact the seventeen acre parc is zone two development land, with five acres prime for building little brick houses on and, hence, worth £1million per acre! Unsurprisingly, the Council will be hitting the owners of Woodside with such high fines that they can repossess the land in payment. In the end, all the families of Woodside will have bought themselves is a £300,000 eviction. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/52 "2004-02-26T01:14:04Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > Apart from the fact that while 80% of all planning permission applications are approved, 90% of applications submitted by ‘Gypsies’ or Travellers are refused. Do you have a cite for this? I’d like to discuss this issue with some other planners. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/53 "2004-02-26T01:33:29Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? It was originally published in [this discussion paper](http://www.cf.ac.uk/claws/tlru/ODP2.pdf) - 152KB .PDF > [@](#): > > At present the refusal rate for Gypsies who have applied for planning permission is approximately 90%, in contrast to the general success rate for all applications of over 80% ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/54 "2004-02-26T02:01:57Z")
Living in Philadelphia, I’ve seen a surprising amount of prejudice toward Rom. It seems to be the only prejudice you can express without everybody in earshot condemning you. The Rom are aslo the group most Philadelphians have never actually met. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/55 "2004-02-26T02:03:45Z")
It’s also in this recent Independant article - [link to Google’s cache](http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:jYg2HIMn9ogJ:news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp%3Fstory%3D490326+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) > [@](#): > > Many of the current problems stem from the 1994 Criminal Justice and Public Order Act. This abolished the Caravan Sites Act - in force since 1968 - which had imposed a duty on local authorities to provide sites for Gypsies and travellers (there are still some 400 council sites in the UK, but almost all are permanently full). > > After the 1994 Act, travellers were encouraged to buy their own land and provide their own sites. But if they choose plots in remote locations to avoid conflict with neighbours, council planners routinely refuse permission for development in open countryside. And if they choose plots in or beside villages - which planners might approve - local residents routinely oppose them. A 1997 study found that 90 per cent of initial planning applications from travellers and Gypsies were refused. Worth mentioning that, while the 1994 Criminal Justice and Public Order Act removed the legal obligation for councils to provide sites as they were required to do under the Caravan Sites Act, many councils ignored that obligation in the first place. As a judge at the European Court of Human Rights pointed out in a dissenting opinion to a case brought by British Romanies : > [@](#): > > The respondent Government were manifestly in a state of illegality from before the time the applicant took the law in her own hands. Section 6 of the Caravan Sites Act of 1968 (until it was revoked by the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 - see paragraph 42), imposed a legal duty on local authorities ‘so far as necessary to provide adequate accommodation for gypsies residing or resorting to their area’. Indeed, the local authorities had been found in breach of their duty to make adequate provision for gypsies in the area in 1985 and had disregarded a directive from the Secretary of State to comply with their statutory duties. > > I believe that a public authority which is in breach of its legal obligations should not be allowed to plead that it is acting ‘in accordance with the law’. The classic constitutional doctrine of ‘clean hands’ precludes those who are in prior contravention of the law from claiming the law’s protection. A public authority owes as great an obligation to comply with the law as any individual. Its responsibility is eminently more than that of individuals belonging to vulnerable classes who are virtually forced to disregard the law in order to be able to exercise their fundamental right to a private and family life - individuals who have to contravene the law due to the operation of the prior failures of the public authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/56 "2004-02-26T02:28:18Z")
FWIW, my Gypsy experience. I was working with a swimming pool cleaner about 15 years ago. One of the pools maintained was with a Roma family. They had a house in a working middle-class neighborhood (Westbury, in Houston). The pool was in bad shape (has nothing really to do with the story) and had a totally hot 17 year old daughter. We got to talking to her, and found out that she was already arranged to be married. She was quite pleasant, and did not seem to have any problem with this. To us, it was totally different from typical American society as we knew it, but common among the social circle of this family. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/57 "2004-02-26T12:03:59Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Dop the gypsies in the UK run the “fortune telling” racket? Not in London at least, that’s left to the Skeery Goths at Camden Market and the New Agers at Carnaby Street. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/58 "2004-02-26T12:24:16Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > Apart from the fact that while 80% of all planning permission applications are approved, 90% of applications submitted by ‘Gypsies’ or Travellers are refused. And you don’t think this could simply be because 80% of all PPAs are “appropriate to the surroundings”, whereas perhaps 90% of PPAs submitted by Travellers aren’t? Any sizeable settlement of people requires increased facilities in the area to support the new community, and the funds to provide this … and this isn’t possible at the drop of a hat. I can’t claim to know an awful lot about this subject (despite having known Traveller blood on my mother’s side, and rumoured Romany blood on my father’s!) but gut instinct tells me the law is applied impartially in these cases. If you can point me to an unbiased cite which shows Travellers / Gypsies have been treated differently to how anyone else would have been treated _with identical land ownership and planning application_, I’m willing to be convinced that injustice is happening in these cases. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/59 "2004-02-26T12:30:41Z")
Duh! Sorry **Kal** , I completely missed your post, with appropriate cite re Woodside’s prior planning permission, before posting. Yep, I agree that’s not justice. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795/60 "2004-02-26T13:33:55Z")
Maybe Kal (or anyone else who knows) could answer this: Is there any tension between the travelling communities (When I was a lad we had dealings with the fairground people and they were very disparaging about the Irish - they called them “hedge bumpers”). If so what are the roots, and how is it expressed? Thanks [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-in-the-us/230795.md?page=4)