# Gypsies taking children. A old bogeyman brought back to life. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 20, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757 "2013-10-20T22:23:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/61 "2013-10-24T11:50:48Z")
[Do Roma ‘Gypsies’ Really Abduct Children?](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/peter-mcguire/roma-gypsies-children_b_4152869.html?utm_hp_ref=uk) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/62 "2013-10-24T12:14:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I admit that for me the notion of an arranged marriage is alien and distasteful, but I also recognize that is my own cultural bias and to other people they’re seen as sensible and ordinary. Depends. I can see a situation where, both parties would consent to a marriage being arranged on their behalf and both are free to pull out of that at any time. As long as both are adults and have the final say then who am I to judge? The problem comes when arrangements are made for minors and the cultural pressures are such that they are never asked and could not consent. That is flat-out abuse and should be condemned in the strongest terms. This is the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/63 "2013-10-24T12:21:40Z")
An Gadai, thanks for that article. It touches on why this incident comes across as racist. Yes, it does appear that the couple in question were committing fraud of some sort; but the immediate assumption that the gypsies kidnapped a white baby is the offensive and racist assumption. Note that if they were committing fraud, it appears to be fraud involving lots of kids; but if I understand the article correctly, only the blonde kid was seized by the state. Nava, when I use the word “white” to contrast the blonde kid against the Roma adults, I’m using it in sort of an American fashion. I’m not sure what word you use in Spain to contrast racism of the lighter-skinned in-group against a darker-skinned out-group. Here we contrast white people against Hispanic people, for example. Whatever word you use for this contrast in your culture, feel free to make the appropriate substitution. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/64 "2013-10-24T12:34:18Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > [Do Roma ‘Gypsies’ Really Abduct Children?](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/peter-mcguire/roma-gypsies-children_b_4152869.html?utm_hp_ref=uk) I’ll stick my neck out and say yes. Seeing as child abduction happens pretty much everywhere it’d be a peculiarly racists statement to say that Roma don’t abduct children. The big question is whether it is more prevalent in Roma culture. I don’t know. Nor do you. Nor does the author in your link. I have personal evidence and experience of the criminal activities of gypsies and irish travellers so I state my preconceptions quite clearly for those. As for the Roma? I don’t know enough about them to have an opinion either way. It is possible that abduction is a cultural phenomena but I doubt it. When the deeper details of the Greek case come to light we may know more about this particular situation but I have an open mind on whether this is a particularly widespread practice or not. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/65 "2013-10-24T12:42:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’ll stick my neck out and say yes. Seeing as child abduction happens pretty much everywhere it’d be a peculiarly racists statement to say that Roma don’t abduct children. Well then you’re getting into semantic parlour games. The author is addressing an activity that is supposedly essential to Roma/Gypsy culture. There is no other ethnic group that I know of that has a reputed, supposed tendency to kidnap kids from other families and spirit them away. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/66 "2013-10-24T12:52:05Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Well then you’re getting into semantic parlour games. The author is addressing an activity that is supposedly essential to Roma/Gypsy culture. There is no other ethnic group that I know of that has a reputed, supposed tendency to kidnap kids from other families and spirit them away. Really? I’d count the group known as ‘white Americans’ who are quite willing to buy babies from around the world despite the large number of children who have no parents in their own country, their own state, or even their own community. But I wouldn’t call them racists, after all they’re perfectly willing to purchase an Asian baby if they can’t afford a nice ‘white’ one. I’m sure they are quite offended when people assume they’ve kidnapped a child who doesn’t look like them. Isn’t that what happens all the time? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/67 "2013-10-24T13:08:27Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Well then you’re getting into semantic parlour games. The author is addressing an activity that is supposedly essential to Roma/Gypsy culture. There is no other ethnic group that I know of that has a reputed, supposed tendency to kidnap kids from other families and spirit them away. That is true, I am doing that. Point being that taking a definite stand either way isn’t really helpful. Those who assume it without evidence are likely to take unwarranted actions (like the gardai). Those who assume it cannot be so are likely to dismiss any evidence put in front of them. (say if the greek case turns up more substantial evidence). ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/68 "2013-10-24T13:40:08Z")
Dutch news reporting that the Birth mother of the gGeek child has been found > [@](#): > > [Biologische moeder 'Maria' terecht](http://nos.nl/artikel/566449-moeder-van-romameisje-gevonden.html) and google translate > > Greek media say they found Mary , the blonde girl last week at a police raid on a Roma camp was found . Biological mother in Bulgaria > > The tall blonde girl did not appear to be later on her parents and a DNA test that Mary not related to them could be. The Roma couple later said that they had adopted the girl , " but that was not quite gone according to the rules ." > > Born in Greece > According to several Greek media the real mother Sasha Rusheva hot and she comes from Burgas , a city on the Bulgarian Black Sea Coast . She is 35 years old and has many more children , including a number of high blonde . She would live in the city Nikolaevo with her husband . > > Rusheva the girl would have given birth in the Greek city of Lamia , not far from the Roma camp where Mary was found . The hospital in Lamia confirms that the woman there gave birth to a daughter. On January 31, 2009 That date also had the Roma parents as given birth . > > registration > Rusheva ten days after birth would have tried to register her baby. But the authorities refused that because the mother claimed she was unmarried and childless , while her identity was that she was married and had two children . > > There was then a judgment pending. But whether that happened is unknown , like what happened after the girl happened. > > A DNA test to determine whether the Bulgarian indeed the mother of Mary. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/69 "2013-10-24T14:59:12Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > Dutch news reporting that the Birth mother of the gGeek child has been found Please tell me that article went through some poorly implemented translation website. It’s almost unreadable. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/70 "2013-10-24T15:18:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Really? I’d count the group known as ‘white Americans’ who are quite willing to buy babies from around the world despite the large number of children who have no parents in their own country, their own state, or even their own community. But I wouldn’t call them racists, after all they’re perfectly willing to purchase an Asian baby if they can’t afford a nice ‘white’ one. I’m sure they are quite offended when people assume they’ve kidnapped a child who doesn’t look like them. Isn’t that what happens all the time? High five. Funny how few people would be happy or consider it not harassment if the police questioned every non-Roma family with a kid of a different hue. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/71 "2013-10-24T17:01:07Z")
[The Guardian on the story.](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/24/woman-bulgaria-girl-family-greece-maria) ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/72 "2013-10-24T17:18:38Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Please tell me that article went through some poorly implemented translation website. It’s almost unreadable. **willthekittensurvive?** said exactly that. It’s a Dutch article and went through google translate. FYI the reason it translated “the real mother Sasha Rusheva hot and she comes from Burgas” is not because Dutch media is disgusting, but because “heet” means both “hot” and “named”/“called”. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/73 "2013-10-24T17:19:16Z")
> [@Dog80](#): > > Here’s a [photo of the little girl and mugshots of her step-parents.](http://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/321343/autoi-einai-oi-duo-roma-pou-arpaxan-ti-mikri-maria/) Is it my imagination or was her hair dyed brown about a year back? [looking at the brown ends of her hair, and about 6 inches of blond going back to the scalp] To me this would indicate that someone tried to make her ‘blend in’ better like for crossing a border inspection point [and by adding fake tan to darken her skin to also blend in better.] Any idea how long she has been with the step-parents? Any chance that her real mother might step forward and confirm or deny how she got with the step parents? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/74 "2013-10-24T17:20:58Z")
Let’s assume for now that Rusheva, the Bulgarian woman, is indeed the mother. Can someone familiar with Greek or EU law suggest what is likely to happen now? Whether or not the Greek government’s assessment of an arranged child marriage is accurate, plainly they are not going to allow Maria to remain with the Dimopoulou couple. Am I correct in thinking that Rusheva, having abandoned Maria before, is unlikely to regain custody? Will Maria be put into foster care and/or made available for adoption? I assume that after this level of publicity, there will be any number of families willing to adopt her. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/75 "2013-10-24T17:57:17Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Let’s assume for now that Rusheva, the Bulgarian woman, is indeed the mother. Can someone familiar with Greek or EU law suggest what is likely to happen now? Whether or not the Greek government’s assessment of an arranged child marriage is accurate, plainly they are not going to allow Maria to remain with the Dimopoulou couple. Am I correct in thinking that Rusheva, having abandoned Maria before, is unlikely to regain custody? Will Maria be put into foster care and/or made available for adoption? I assume that after this level of publicity, there will be any number of families willing to adopt her. If anti-Roma sentiment is allowed to prevail there is a good possibility that she will be stripped of her family, culture, and heritage and given to strangers who will attempt to brainwash her into their concept of a fantasy child rather than excepting her for who she truly is. I just had to let that venom out. Seriously, look at the situation, assuming Rusheva is the mother, what she did wasn’t bad by her culture, nor by many non-Roma cultures. I don’t see evidence that she “abandoned” the child. She could not provide for the child. She gave her into the care of friends who could (I am betting the Dimopoulous and the child’s biological parents are related as some sort of distance cousins) while she presued employment (you know, to support her children). Most of the problems encountered in this situation are the results of poverty. It sounds like the Dimopoulous were involved in public assistance fraud (Better to steal, than starve). There were weapons and illegal drugs at the Roma settlement. Plenty of homes throughout the United States (and only a few hundred kilometers north of Greece in the Balkans) have considerably more firearms. There’s also plenty of illegal drugs in middle class neighborhoods throughout the United States and Greece also. In fact, probably most of the illegal drugs in the Roma settlement were there to be sold to nice, respectable, middle class Greek citizens and vacationing tourists. Seriously, if this were a black or latino family in America that left a light skinned child in the care of relatives, it wouldn’t have made the international press. Or if it did there would thousands of people screaming about sterotyping and disrupting families. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/76 "2013-10-24T19:20:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Really? I’d count the group known as ‘white Americans’ who are quite willing to buy babies from around the world despite the large number of children who have no parents in their own country, their own state, or even their own community. But I wouldn’t call them racists, after all they’re perfectly willing to purchase an Asian baby if they can’t afford a nice ‘white’ one. I’m sure they are quite offended when people assume they’ve kidnapped a child who doesn’t look like them. Isn’t that what happens all the time? I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/77 "2013-10-24T19:45:33Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > **willthekittensurvive?** said exactly that. It’s a Dutch article and went through google translate. FYI the reason it translated “the real mother Sasha Rusheva hot and she comes from Burgas” is not because Dutch media is disgusting, but because “heet” means both “hot” and “named”/“called”. Ah- I didn’t see the “google translate” next to the link for the article. My eye went right for the text. I read **willthekittensurvive?** comment and the article itself, but not that bit. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/78 "2013-10-24T20:23:41Z")
Daily Mail article on the Bulgarian parents Sasha Ruseva, 35, and her husband Atana Rusev, 37. Hope this turns out to be true. I wonder what happens next? Does the kid just go back to them? It doesn’t sound like they can afford to raise her. I guess the Roma couple is still in trouble? I’m not seeing a very happy ending. But the kid should be with her parents, if they are willing to provide for her. > **[Is 'Maria' the daughter of a Bulgarian mother of 10 who gave her away?](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2474887/Is-Marias-REAL-family-Bulgarian-mother-quizzed-police-birth-records-suggest-gave-away-baby-Greece.html)** > > Documents show that Sasha Ruseva delivered a baby girl on Maria's birthday at a Greek hospital which is an hour away from place where girl was discovered. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/79 "2013-10-24T20:44:29Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If anti-Roma sentiment is allowed to prevail there is a good possibility that she will be stripped of her family, culture, and heritage and given to strangers who will attempt to brainwash her into their concept of a fantasy child rather than excepting her for who she truly is. I just had to let that venom out. Seriously, look at the situation, assuming Rusheva is the mother, what she did wasn’t bad by her culture, nor by many non-Roma cultures. I don’t see evidence that she “abandoned” the child. She could not provide for the child. She gave her into the care of friends who could (I am betting the Dimopoulous and the child’s biological parents are related as some sort of distance cousins) while she presued employment (you know, to support her children). Most of the problems encountered in this situation are the results of poverty. It sounds like the Dimopoulous were involved in public assistance fraud (Better to steal, than starve). There were weapons and illegal drugs at the Roma settlement. Plenty of homes throughout the United States (and only a few hundred kilometers north of Greece in the Balkans) have considerably more firearms. There’s also plenty of illegal drugs in middle class neighborhoods throughout the United States and Greece also. In fact, probably most of the illegal drugs in the Roma settlement were there to be sold to nice, respectable, middle class Greek citizens and vacationing tourists. Seriously, if this were a black or latino family in America that left a light skinned child in the care of relatives, it wouldn’t have made the international press. Or if it did there would thousands of people screaming about sterotyping and disrupting families. I’m taking Rusheva at her word that she gave up a child years ago without legal process, doesn’t know where the child is now, and doesn’t know if Maria is that child. Whether we call that abandonment, economic necessity, or cultural tradition, I suspect that a US court would be very reluctant to return the child to that parent, regardless of race. I’m curious whether Greek or EU law would lean the same way. I wonder too if the international element, with Rusheva being in Bulgaria, makes a difference. And I don’t disagree that there are children of all races living in awful situations across the US. Nonetheless, over here it’s always going to be the case that once a child is under state supervision, the rules change and get more stringent. A home that might not be bad enough to take a child out of may still be too bad to send a child back to once she’s been taken out, in other words. Here, where there are apparently unsafe living conditions on top of no evidence thus far of a biological connection and no custody determination, it’s inconceivable that a US court would return the girl to the couple that had her in their care. In itself, the lack of a biological connection would make it extremely difficult to find a legal basis even to assert a claim that the girl be released into their custody. Greek authorities seem to be ending up in the same place on this point, insofar as it seems clear that they will not give the child back to the couple with whom she was found. Perhaps indeed this simply reflects anti-Roma prejudice; I guess I wonder if there is any basis to believe that a non-Roma family would be allowed to keep custody absent a biological connection, under Greek or EU law? Otherwise, what is there for Maria? Is there foster care in Greece? Or would she sent to some sort of state-run group home, similar to an orphanage? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757/80 "2013-10-24T22:04:42Z")
[quote=“Tom\_Tildrum, post:79, topic:671757”] In itself, the lack of a biological connection would make it extremely difficult to find a legal basis even to assert a claim that the girl be released into their custody. [QUOTE] If that were true no adopter could ever refuse to give a child back to his or her biological parents. The Dimopoulous have been her caregivers for most of her life. I for one would like to see some solid evidence of the alleged neglect. Being poor and doing what you have to do is not a crime. Neither is being from a minority culture or speaking a language different from the dominate groups in a society. The reports mentioned the child was extremely frightened when taken into custody. Most children would be extremely frightened after being taken away from their home and familiar surroundings by strangers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsies-taking-children-a-old-bogeyman-brought-back-to-life/671757.md?page=5)