# Gypsy / Romani discussion (spun off from GQ thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 26, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074 "2021-06-26T16:34:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/121 "2021-06-30T15:53:29Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > the term ‘gypsy’ is the word that another ethnic group in Britain uses to describe themselves. It’s not a slur to them. I can think of a term that some Black people in the United States use to describe themselves. Obviously that means it’s not a slur. Do you use it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/122 "2021-06-30T15:57:50Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > As I just [argued in another thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brandeis-university-considers-picnic-to-be-oppressive-language/945016/388), the term ‘gypsy’ is the word that another ethnic group in Britain uses to describe themselves. It’s not a slur to them. > > The Roma object to being called gypsies because they are not gypsies. But the gypsies are. Interesting. The Alaskan _Eskimo_ do not mind that term, in fact they prefer it as a group term. However, some of the similar/related peoples in Canada do NOT like “Eskimo”. So, as it said, it depends on context. > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I can think of a term that some Black people in the United States use to describe themselves. Obviously that means it’s not a slur. Do you use it? Not in any normal context, and I think this would lead to a giant hijack. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/123 "2021-06-30T16:00:47Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I can think of a term that some Black people in the United States use to describe themselves. Obviously that means it’s not a slur. Do you use it? This is disingenuous. It’s not some slang term for an ethnic group. It’s the name of the group. If I want to talk about this group, I will use the name that they chose for themselves. The term that you have in mind is nothing like that at all. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/124 "2021-06-30T16:43:58Z")
Having seen a couple of episodes, the big issue IMO wasn’t that they painted the people in the show as having weird or foreign customs, but rather as merely extremely trashy. The show wouldn’t have been materially different in content had it been “My Big Fat American Trailer Park Wedding” and concentrated on all sorts of similarly trashy stuff without the specific ethnic aspects. That does make the American Romani look bad, but more in the sense of they’re a bunch of white trash, not “others”. Which is a step up from Europe, but still not good at all. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/125 "2021-06-30T17:41:48Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > If I want to talk about this group, I will use the name that they chose for themselves. If you’re talking about the specific group that is claiming the name, that makes sense. If you’re talking about any other individual or group, including fictional references or vague generalizations or references to “lifestyle” of people not members of the specific group to whom the term accurately applies and who wish it used, that’s a different matter entirely. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with using the noun “Jew” for a person who’s actually a Jew whether culturally or as practicing the religion. It’s still wrong to use the word for some caricature of Judaism, fictional or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/126 "2021-06-30T18:03:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > There is nothing whatsoever wrong with using the noun “Jew” for a person who’s actually a Jew whether culturally or as practicing the religion. It’s still wrong to use the word for some caricature of Judaism, fictional or otherwise. Yes, I like this example. As a Jew, it rings very true. I dislike fictional caricatures of Jews being labeled as Jewish, and feel those are usually harmful to my people. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/127 "2021-06-30T18:26:31Z")
The chances that they are culturally Romani are slim - since Romani are insular private people who don’t trust outsiders - anthropologists have had a hard time breaking into Romani culture. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/128 "2021-06-30T19:23:39Z")
I haven’t seen it but I was looking into it yesterday for a different discussion. The original British series was about Irish Travellers, not the Roma. Don’t know much about the US version but there is a big Irish Traveller population in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/129 "2021-07-01T14:39:14Z")
And my understanding is that Traveller culture is a different thing. (I read a piece a few years ago, that I can’t find now, that we are under going a period where our knowledge of Romani culture is growing - because Eastern European non-assimilated Romani themselves are getting educated - there are Romani lawyers and anthropologists and historians.) ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/130 "2021-07-01T15:42:06Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And my understanding is that Traveller culture is a different thing. When I was growing up, a band of several 100 Irish Travellers, perhaps upwards of a 1000, came to my town. Many of them bought houses and stayed. We had around 30 traveller kids in my primary school. They called themselves gypsies. We called them lots of names that were ethnic slurs (because we were young and stupid and almost certainly racist) but we were always corrected that the polite term for them was gypsy. As I say, that’s what they called themselves. There are also other ethnic group of travellers in Britain — unrelated to either the Irish Travellers and the Roma — who also call themselves gypsies. Another interesting fact that I learned in my research yesterday: pretty much all of the Roma in the UK arrived in the great migration when the Eastern European countries joined the EU in the early 2000s and they almost all settled down and bought houses. That is, they are no longer nomadic. Irish Travellers in the UK, for the most part, are still nomadic. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/131 "2021-07-02T23:35:38Z")
In Ireland, it’s considered incorrect to refer to Travellers as gypsies. Not necessarily insulting, just factually wrong. I’m intrigued to hear that Travellers living in England call themselves gypsies, because my understanding is that the two communities are completely separate. There has been a bit of a euphemism treadmill in regard to the name used for the Travelling community during my lifetime. When I was a child, I was taught that the “polite” name was “itinerants”, which replaced the earlier “tinkers”. I find myself uncomfortable even writing these terms now. However, the word “Traveller” has been the accepted term for some decades without becoming “contaminated” with racist overtones, so perhaps the treadmill has stopped. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/132 "2021-07-02T23:56:16Z")
I do wish Kal were here (though of course he would be in no way obliged to participate in this discussion). I met Kal on a few occasions and he spoke passionately and knowledgeably about Gypsy identity. I didn’t get the impression that he regarded the term as a slur, or perhaps he wished to reclaim the term. In saying that, I don’t mean at all to denigrate Dangerosa’s contributions, just that Kal would add another perspective based on his experience of growing up Romani in Britain. Dangerosa, I am very sorry that your Irish friend rejected you when she became aware of your Romani heritage. I would hope that this is not typical of Irish people. While hatred and suspicion of Irish Travellers is unfortunately endemic among the Irish settled community, this wouldn’t generally extend to Romani people, not least because most Irish people were completely unfamiliar with Romani people until some of them came from Eastern Europe about 20 years ago. In any event, treating somebody badly because of their heritage is hard to forgive. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/133 "2021-07-03T00:18:52Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > When I was a child, I was taught that the “polite” name was “itinerants”, which replaced the earlier “tinkers”. I find myself uncomfortable even writing these terms now. Interesting… In the US, “itinerant” is usually a fairly value-neutral word, and “tinker” is a job, not an ethnicity (albeit one that, for some reason, is associated with the Roma). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/134 "2021-07-03T00:25:44Z")
I remember when i was a kid a friend who had visited (lived in) Ireland told me about the tinkers, and i was very confused, because to me that was a slightly obsolete word for a profession, or a verb. (I might tinker with my leaky faucet to try to fix it.) And yes, value-neutral, or ever-so-slightly positive. (Someone who tinkers with stuff is likely handy.) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/135 "2021-07-03T00:28:33Z")
I’ve been reading this thread since the beginning. I forget if I posted in it yet. A few things I also miss **Kal**. He only brought up his heritage when it was relevant. He was a nice guy too. Since being updated to eliminate ethnic, racial, religious and other bigotry, Dungeons & Dragons has made all kinds of changes to old products. In the horror setting of Ravenloft, the Vistani are stereotypical g\*psies based on old horror movies. Though I have copies of a lot of old Ravenloft books, I haven’t yet read Waking Dream- A Guide To The Vistani. I have a hunch if you remove all the offensive stereotype from the Vistani, there will be nothing left. Romani are also featured in the old World Of Darkness line by White Wolf. Some of it is offensive. Some is not. I’ve read reviews of the book G\*psy by actual Romani. The reviews are filled with anger that a company that should know better published such a book. Oh and several posts in this thread list Jews and Romani as two separate groups. According to **Kal** some Romani are Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/136 "2021-07-03T02:11:39Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > According to **Kal** some Romani are Jewish. Some of nearly everybody are Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/137 "2021-07-03T11:15:38Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Some of nearly everybody are Jewish. I have to say, I’m familiar with most of the Jewish communities out there, but I’ve never heard of Romani Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/138 "2021-07-03T11:18:01Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > Another interesting fact that I learned in my research yesterday: pretty much all of the Roma in the UK arrived in the great migration when the Eastern European countries joined the EU in the early 2000s and they almost all settled down and bought houses. That is, they are no longer nomadic. Irish Travellers in the UK, for the most part, are still nomadic. I thought the [Romanichal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanichal) have been there for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/139 "2021-07-03T13:00:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I thought the [Romanichal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanichal) have been there for centuries. There have been Roma people in Britain for centuries. The vast, vast majority arrived in the last 20 years. And, incidentally, may have to leave soon as barely any have applied for “settled status” and the deadline for applying was last Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2021, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074/140 "2021-07-03T13:19:15Z")
There are lots of subtle distinctions to be made here. I think this passage captures many of them: > The term _Gypsy, Roma and_ _Traveller_ has been used by policy-makers and researchers to describe a range of ethnic groups or those with nomadic ways of life who are not from a specific ethnicity. In the UK, it is common to differentiate between Gypsies (including English Gypsies, Scottish Gypsy/Travellers, Welsh Gypsies and other Romany people), Irish Travellers, who have specific Irish roots, and Roma, understood to be more recent migrants from Central and Eastern Europe. In continental Europe, however, all groups with nomadic histories are categorised as “Roma”, a much broader term that, while it includes Gypsies and Irish Travellers, is not the way in which most British communities would identify themselves. [https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/360/full-report.html](https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/360/full-report.html) Here’s how I parse this: The people of Romani origin who have been in England for centuries (the people Alessan refers to as “the Romanichal”) refer to themselves as English Gypsies. “Roma, understood to be more recent migrants from Central and Eastern Europe”. Roma do not like to be referred to as Gypsies. Irish Travellers are not Roma. They refer to themselves as Gypsies. (I acknowledge that hibernicus has a different account of the situation in Ireland.) In a separate section, the report says that there are estimated to be ~200,000 recent Roma immigrants and 100,000-300,000 Irish Travellers. And again: > We asked many members of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities how they preferred to describe themselves. While some find the term “Gypsy” to be offensive, many stakeholders and witnesses were proud to associate themselves with this term and so we have decided that it is right and proper to use it, where appropriate, throughout the report. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gypsy-romani-discussion-spun-off-from-gq-thread/945074.md?page=8)