# H1B visas - no jobs for US citizens. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2001, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739 "2001-01-06T17:21:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2001, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/21 "2001-01-06T23:29:27Z")
That reminds me of a joke about the Navy… nah. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/22 "2001-01-07T00:21:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by oldscratch \* > \*\*Well I can either believe what the law and government says about a specific issue, or I can believe random rumours from unnamed people. Yep. :rolleyes: > \*\* I’m surprised at you **oldscratch**. Do you believe anything the government says as literally true? Do you think laws are always enforced _exactly_ the way they appear on the books? Such positions would be inconsistent with everything else I know about you. I’m not joining the debate (since I don’t know a damn thing about it and it doesn’t affect me in my field, anyway) I just wanted to poin the above out. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/23 "2001-01-07T00:44:19Z")
**stormtrax** , you’ve been replaced by someone who’s better than you. And rather than work harder or go to school to get better, you scream about your entitlement to a job and how the law should keep out honest hard workers who had the misfortune of being born in a lesser place. And you spew lies about how they don’t pay taxes, etc. You, sir are an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/24 "2001-01-07T00:50:43Z")
First, a possible explanation. H1-B workers are not exempt from tax. However, many H1-B workers are contract workers whose employee of record is a placement firm specializing in finding spots for such workers. In some cases, that employer of record might negotiate an “after taxes and fees” rate with the worker. The taxes are paid, but the worker never sees them deducted from his negotiated wage. Now, I have worked with several H1-B recipients and have generally found them to be competent and hard working. Every one that I have known has lived, along with his immediate family, in the local community. They spent money for housing, transportation, food, entertainment, clothing, etc. None of them lived like paupers while “draining our economy” of the cash they sent home. Most were paid less than the top rate for profesionals in their positions, but none were accepting a wage which was unreasonable. Yes, fraud exists in this program. Fraud exists in every program. Arguing that the law should be changed because people are not following it is tortuous logic. It is also true that most high-tech firms rely heavily upon foreign workers. Now, one way to view this is that those firms are trying to cheat US workers out of good jobs. Another way of looking at it is that those firms are taking advantage of the best minds available, no matter where they happened to grow up. The truth, most likely, is a little of both. Having spent much of the last 60 days interviewing applicants for a technical position I can tell you that if a strong H1-B applicant showed up tomorrow I would send his paperwork to HR before the ink on my signature dried. Of course, the US Army also fulfilled its promises to me re: college benefits. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/25 "2001-01-07T00:51:13Z")
No Lizard. But, if a government agency says that it’s illegal to dump toxic waste, and some nutjob comes in and claims that his friends says it’s legal. I’m gonna believe the government. Notice, we’re not disputing that fraud occurs. There are people of all stripes who break the laws. What we are disputing is the law itself. I’m gonna stick with the authorities who wrote the laws on that one. Make sense? ---
**Author:** ![stormtrax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@stormtrax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stormtrax)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/26 "2001-01-07T00:59:03Z")
Bill H, you are entirely ignorant of what my skills and abilities are as compared with other workers. You are entirely oblivious to any factual information regarding my situation. Your judgemental attitude reveals you as an ignorant fool offering nothing of value. A person of your apparent skills should go far in either management or government. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/27 "2001-01-07T01:03:52Z")
> [@](#): > > American service men and women do need to be at least fully naturalized Americans, lest we fall short in a military campaign against our powerful enemy, Armenia. > > Okay, maybe not Armenis, but you get the point. \*\* Incorrect. Warrant and Commissioned Officers, and E9 (to include the sole E10 in each branch of the Armed Forces), are required to be US citizens. All other enlisted personnel may be (1) US citizens, by birth or naturalization, (2) Resident Aliens, or (3) Non-Immigrant Aliens enlisted under the provisions of the Status of Forces Agreement between the United States of America and the Republic of the Philippines, when said treaty was in effect. This tidbit brought to you by Monty, your friendly retired Personnelman First Class, US Navy. (PN1, Fleet Reserve) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/28 "2001-01-07T01:06:16Z")
I left out an important tidbit in the tidbit above: Enlisted personnel whose Rating, MOS, or AFSC requires a security clearance, of any level, must also be US citizens, unless a waiver of the citizenship requirement is granted. In 20 years of Active Service and 13 months of Reserve service, I’ve never seen a waiver for that, but I suppose it could happen. ---
**Author:** ![stormtrax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@stormtrax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stormtrax)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/29 "2001-01-07T01:07:20Z")
S.M. you could definitely be on to something. I am glad that there are people like you out there countering the forces of the moronic Bill H’s of the world. What you postulated is entirely plausible and would explain what I have heard. As for the companies, I doubt very much (and have never stated otherwise) that they are out to “cheat US citizens out of good jobs”. They view everything in terms of the immediate bottom line: how to make things look just good enough for another performance bonus and a promotion before the natural consequences come about. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/30 "2001-01-07T01:12:00Z")
**stormtrax** wrote > [@](#): > > A person of your apparent skills should go far in either management or government. In fact, I **have** done ok, and have created several hundred jobs in the last 4 years. Perhaps a third of those were H1Bs. The H1Bs I have worked with have all been exceptional people that I was proud to work with and proud to have brought into this country. They weren’t hired “because they were cheap”. And take this from one who’s signed a lot of paychecks: they pay taxes just like everybody else. I won’t even dive into your other crazy lies, like the government backing out on GI Bill benefits. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/31 "2001-01-07T01:12:30Z")
Wow, I go to ask about the security clearance thing, and notice you just answered it. I’ve heard, though, that the vast majority of ratings in the Navy are off-limits to non citizens because of that, and they all get stuck being MSs and stuff like that. Is this at all accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/32 "2001-01-07T01:17:53Z")
It’s not the Army, etc., who promise the benefits; the programs are statutory. That means that if the individual meets the statutory requirements, then he gets the statutory benefits. The Montgomery GI Bill is technically a non-contributory program. Nobody contributes a penny to it. What they do is agree to a reduced pay for 12 months, said reduction being $100 per month. If the individual decides not to avail himself of the program, at the end of the statutory limit, then he just pissed away a lot of cash, not to mention one hell of an opportunity. Please note that taxes are levied on the reduced salary, not including the $100. FTR, that pissed away cash is a hell of a lot higher than $1200; it’s in the neighbourhood of $18,000. The VEAP (Veterans Education Assistance Program) was a contributory program. If an individual decided, after initially participating in the program, then he can be reimbursed his contribution to the program. Taxes were levied on the salary, to include whatever the individual contributed. When the MGIB started, there was one hell of a good ad campaign for it, including the First Sergeant reading the pertinent parts about qualifications and benefits to the assembled troops. There was also, quite recently, a conversion program for those of us in the VEAP to sign up for the MGIB. I converted mine in March of 1997. There’s also a thing known as the MGIB Enrollment form. Said form has the eligibility criteria listed on it. If this doesns’t satisfy your relative’s quest for “justice,” he can always submit a Request for Correction of Military Records (the Navy and Marines use the Request for Correction of Naval Records). Or, he can always write his Congressman. Sorry, but I’ve no sympathy for someone who didn’t read the form or didn’t do anything to fix it but whine. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/33 "2001-01-07T01:24:37Z")
P.S. Please forgive the typos. It’s freaking freezing in Marina tonight and I’m not used to it! {Yep, that’s a whine, but I’ll live ;)} ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/34 "2001-01-07T01:25:53Z")
**stormtrax** wrote > [@](#): > > (Spiritus Mundi), I am glad that there are people like you out there countering the forces of the moronic Bill H’s of the world. You may want to re-read **Spiritus Mundis** post and my own: they both say the same thing. **SM** didn’t say I was wrong, rather that you were wrong. The only difference was that **SM** was far more polite. And in case you’ve forgotten your original comments, they were: > [@](#): > > Under terms of the visa, they are not subject to social security, medicare or income tax, though under the laws of this country if they ever get sick and decided not to pay for health insurance (or if it was not offered to them) they are entitled to free health care. You said in no uncertain terms that they didn’t pay taxes. You lied. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/35 "2001-01-07T01:29:10Z")
**stormtrax** wrote > [@](#): > > As for the companies, I doubt very much (and have never stated otherwise) that they are out to “cheat US citizens out of good jobs”. Then how do you explain the title of this thread: **H1B visas - no jobs for US citizens**? Did someone else type that for you? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/36 "2001-01-07T01:30:46Z")
Waterj, Actually, there are plenty of ratings (MS, PN, DK, etc.) which do not require a clearance, and plenty of ratings (CT, OS, etc.) which do. As far as crew complement goes, all personnel assigned to Ship’s Company of nuclear powered vessels must be US citezens, yet that requirement does not exist for personnel of units embarked on said vessels. ---
**Author:** ![stormtrax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@stormtrax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stormtrax)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/37 "2001-01-07T02:12:56Z")
H1B visas are used to award jobs to non-US citizens. Companies do not set out saying “Let’s take away jobs from US citizens” and say -instead- “let’s get cheap labor”. Even a 4th grader should be able to comprehend this. Apparently you choose not to. Part two: lying and repeating what I was told by a recipient of an H1B are entirely different things. I may be wrong, but I don’t lie. Ever. As for the GI benefits, please explain why people I know were denied benefits. Honorable discharges aside, either the paperwork was “lost” or an honorable discharge wasn’t good enough. What do you know? ---
**Author:** ![stormtrax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@stormtrax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stormtrax)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/38 "2001-01-07T02:17:34Z")
It is the reduction in pay for the GI bill of which I speak. While “contributed” may be technically incorrect, I tend to lump in any reduction in pay as a “contribution” - he would have otherwise received the funds in the form of higher pay but “contributed” them (in the form of a smaller paycheck) to become eligible for the GI bill. He is in the process of contesting the decision (as are many people he knew who left the army at the same time as he) but has been promised that the military’s swift and decisive action will require at least several more months. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/39 "2001-01-07T03:38:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stormtrax \* > \*\*As for the GI benefits, please explain why people I know were denied benefits. Honorable discharges aside, either the paperwork was “lost” or an honorable discharge wasn’t good enough. What do you know? \*\* I’m not going to get into your other charges, **stormtrax** but I know that GI Bill (and College fund-type benefits) are not absolute guarantees. In addition to the requirement for discharge (it must be a General under Honorable or higher), but the person must also be eligible for re-enlistment (just because a person got out with an Honorable does not mean the person is eligible to re-enlist.), meet minimum time-in-service requirements (usually 180 consecutive days), and not fall under other GI Bill programs (for example, someone initially enlists in the Army in 1981 [the old rules], is discharged after a year or two, then re-ups in the Navy in 1986 [the new rules].) Finally, participation in the GI Bill is purely voluntary. You pay in $1200 at $100 a month for 12 months. Some of the people I was in boot camp with were trying to support families on an E-1’s pay, and were hard-pressed to afford even the $100 a month. Tell your buddy to contact his Congressman’s office. They have special veteran’s affairs people who have an amazing ability to get things done where the VA or DOD can take months or years. Robin ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2001, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739/40 "2001-01-07T04:00:08Z")
A note on the correction of what people in the military need to be, I was meerly agreeing that people of certain ranks need to have spent at least a certain amount of time as a resident alien or whatever to become a citizen. Sorry for the lack of clarity. > [@](#): > > they are not subject to social security, medicare or income tax, though under the laws of this country if they ever get sick and decided not to pay for health insurance (or if it was not offered to them) they are entitled to free health care. Even if you never lie, you might want to consider picking up the habit in exchange for making rash assumptions and decisions without spending a second or two in actual, rational though. Just a suggestion. And I would tend to agree with Bill H.'s initial description of you as an idiot. Or a liar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/h1b-visas-no-jobs-for-us-citizens/48739.md?page=3)