# HA! The IRS "Scandal" Was A Crock O' Shit! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729 "2013-07-05T16:35:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/201 "2013-07-19T23:52:43Z")
As reported by the media, BOLO list or no, progressive groups got quick approval. Secondly, Carter Hull has testified that Tea Party applications were requested by Wilkins, NOT progressive applications. Then a year later, Wilkins ordered that the Tea Party groups be contacted again to provide more information. TEa Party groups. Not progressive groups. The basic lie is that a) this happened at Cincinnati, and b) since the BOLO lists were in Cincinnati, both progressive and Tea Party groups were treated the same. It’s debunked by the fact that once you start looking at DC you find that officials were only interested in Tea Party applications. So ,now that we know that Wilkins is the next guy up the chain, did he order it on his own, or did someone tell him to do so? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/202 "2013-07-20T00:03:05Z")
Peggy Noonan highlights the key testimony: > **[Peggy Noonan: A Bombshell in the IRS Scandal](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324448104578614220949743916)** > > In The Wall Street Journal, Peggy Noonan says that the IRS scandal wasn't confined to a few rogue workers in Cincinnati—the chief counsel's office is implicated. **Ms. Hofacre of the Cincinnati office testified that when she was given tea-party applications, she had to kick them upstairs. When she was given non-tea-party applications, they were sent on for normal treatment. Was she told to send liberal or progressive groups for special scrutiny? No, she did not scrutinize the applications of liberal or progressive groups. “I would send those to general inventory.” Who got extra scrutiny? “They were all tea-party and patriot cases.” She became “very frustrated” by the “micromanagement” from Washington. “It was like working in lost luggage.” She applied to be transferred.** So I’ll say it again. the meme being pushed by Democrats that progressive groups were also singled out? Lie. Big fat lie. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/203 "2013-07-20T00:18:01Z")
And you can’t think of a single reason why that might be so that doesn’t involve political persecution? Suppose it was your job. You are supposed to protect us from scofflaws flauting the tax rules. Suppose you take that job seriously. Is the defining characteristic of the “tea party” groups political, or not? If a group of people is decidedly political in purpose, obviously so, do they not deserve…nay, require!..extra scrutiny? Especially when they claim special tax privileges reserved for groups that are not, repeat, _not_! primarily political. You’ve seen Tea Party functions on TV, with and without Fox News cheerleaders. Are those meeting predominately political, or are they gatherings of needlepoint enthusiasts? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/204 "2013-07-20T00:19:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So I’ll say it again. the meme being pushed by Democrats that progressive groups were also singled out? Lie. Big fat lie. She must have been busy, processing every single application from every group in the nation. Because if she didn’t, your hyperbolic “Big fat lie!” is based on a very small sample. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/205 "2013-07-20T00:21:16Z")
It might not involve political persecution. However, it was definitely treating groups differently based on ideology. Determining the motivation for it and where the orders ultimately came from is why we’re having an investigation. It would also be nice to know why the IRS hasn’t been forthcoming. THey tried to stage-managed the release of the bad news and apparently their investigation wasn’t very thorough, because Congress keeps on finding out new information that the IRS could have found out just by asking people. Of course, Lois Lerner sitting in on interviews with employees might have had something to do with them clamming up. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/206 "2013-07-20T00:23:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > She must have been busy, processing every single application from every group in the nation. Because if she didn’t, your hyperbolic “Big fat lie!” is based on a very small sample. The IRS claimed that TWO employees were handling the applications. That’s at least one story that’s been kept straight so far. We’re only talking about 35 applications or so. In the private sector they would have had much bigger workloads, and that’s without higher ups offering to “help”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/207 "2013-07-20T00:30:25Z")
For another viewpoint on Peggy Nooner’s analytical acumen, I link a recent offering from the _Daily Kos_ > **[Peggy Noonan will be propping up IRS 'scandal' for next hundred years](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2013/07/19/1225009/-Peggy-Noonan-will-be-propping-up-IRS-scandal-for-next-hundred-years)** > > Any doubt that Peggy Noonan is a hopeless shill should really have been cleared up by now : > > Peggy Noonan writes in her July ... (Not you, **adaher**. The lefty cootie rate there is beyond your shield capacity, and your dilithium crystals would buckle and then burst) They note that the essential facts of this latest bombshell have been known since early May. I would offer choice excerpts but that carries the risk of quoting her, and I will do anything for loathe… but I won’t do _that!_ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/208 "2013-07-20T00:38:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I would offer choice excerpts but that carries the risk of quoting her, and I will do anything for loathe… but I won’t do _that!_ It helps if you have a bit of the hair of the dog that bites her. I wouldn’t suggest trying to keep up, though…that way lies madness and alcohol poisoning. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/209 "2013-07-20T00:39:32Z")
I’m a very dangerous conservative. I actually read Daily Kos, a lot. Although I read TPM more. I’m on to you guys.🙂 I’d note that the “old news” defense isn’t a defense at all, yet seems to be treated as an “AHA!” argument by those making it. Aside from that, there’s nothing in that post that provides any enlightenment at all. It continues to push the falsehood that progressive groups were targeted, and furthermore adds to the lie by saying it was “edited out”. The actual process goes more like this: 1. IG investigation finds targeting of conservative groups. 2. Bush appointee heading the IRS is fired. 3. New Democratic appointee “finds” evidence that progressive groups were targeted. 4. IG never saw these documents before. Now if I’m putting two and two together, it becomes clear now why the Bush appointee was fired. Not because he was responsible, but because he wouldn’t defend the administration’s interests. Werfel has gone right to work on that. Furthermore, if this went all the way up to the counsel’s office, then it’s plausible that the head of the IRS wasn’t even in the loop. Democrats are going to regret pushing the “Bush appointee” meme. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/210 "2013-07-20T00:48:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So I’ll say it again. the meme being pushed by Democrats that progressive groups were also singled out? Lie. Big fat lie. You’ve got to be done Adaher… ISSA surely is after all this: > [@](#): > > Issa’s committee has so far conducted 15 interviews with IRS officials connected to processing of Tea Party nonprofit applications — all said the White House was in no way involved and that there were no political motivations in the targeting. Six said they are Republicans, six said they had no political affiliation and three said they’re Democrats. “No, not at all. That’s kind of laughable that people think that,” one of the GOP-leaning agents interviewed said when asked about political motivations. “This is purely cases that, unfortunately, Cincinnati didn’t have enough guidance on. That (c)(4) area is a very, very difficult area.” (Indeed, Congress forced the IRS to get into this difficult area against its will.) > > Emboldened by the new evidence, Democrats are ready to use the hearing today to turn the microscope around on George and Issa. “I have serious doubts about [the inspector general report’s] thoroughness, and I have serious doubts as to whether it was indeed comprehensive,” Cummings told Sam Stein. > > Politico’s Rachael Bade and Lauren French preview some questions Democrats are likely to ask. Most important: Why didn’t the inspector general report mention the fact that progressive were also flagged for review? Previously, George’s office has said that it only investigates what Congress asks it to — in this case, Issa asked him to investigate targeting of Tea Party groups — but Democrats are not satisfied with that answer. “It’s sort of a nonsensical explanation because does anyone really believe an inspector general of any agency is limited in the scope of an audit by a member of Congress?” said Gerry Connolly, a Democrat on the Oversight Committee. > > And why didn’t George’s report mention the other TIGTA investigators who examined the 5,500 emails and concluded there was no political motives? Why didn’t the report mention lists that targeted liberal and other groups for extra scrutiny? > > And perhaps most troubling, why did George personally intervene to stop the release of documents to Congress? Last week, as IRS employees were preparing to turn over another batch of documents to the Oversight Committee, George stopped them, according to Cummings’ office. George is expected to cite a law that prevents the disclosure of personal tax information, but the IRS has previously released plenty of documents by merely redacting the names and personal data on them. Democrats wonder if he’s covering something up. “Prevent[ing] the disclosure of relevant information that could raise further questions about the reliability of his report and testimony,” Cummings said. > > Yesterday, acting IRS administrator Danny Werfel confirmed Cummings’ account during a hearing on a different matter. Werfel added later that George’s move appeared unprecedented. By day’s end on Wednesday, Werfel was able to provide a definitive answer, telling the committee’s Democratic staff that George’s actions were unprecedented. “None of the people we checked with recalled a situation where the inspector general told the IRS that a planned release of information by the IRS would constitute a section 6103 violation after IRS disclosure counsel determined that particular material was releasable to the public or to Congress under section 6103,” he said. > > And then there’s Darrell Issa. While he’ll technically be in charge of the hearing today before his House Oversight Committee, which will feature George and other witnesses, Issa will also be taking the stand, in a way. As the person with perhaps the most to lose from the collapse of the IRS scandal, he’ll be playing defense as Democrats seek to tear down his narrative. > > It’s a familiar place for Issa — blowing desperately on the last smoldering embers of what once promised to be a towering conflagration of a scandal — and after overplaying his hand in Fast and Furious, Solyndra, Benghazi and even the Joe Sestak affair, among many others, whatever credibility Issa has left may die with the IRS controversy. (Then again, the media tends to be pretty credulous when it comes to scandals in a president’s second term.) > > Even the White House is acknowledging that it may have acted prematurely in jumping ahead of the IRS story. “I’ve seen some very interesting stories that cast some light and, I think, might cause everyone here to reflect upon how this was viewed in the immediate aftermath of the breaking of the story,” press secretary Jay Carney said when asked if the president reacted too quickly. > > Ahead of the hearings, Republicans are trying to make hay out of the fact that the IRS’ chief counsel — one of only two Obama appointees in the entire agency — was involved in the targeting of Tea Party groups. But this news feels stale as it seems to have already been asked and answered. The fact that the counsel’s office provided guidance and attended a meeting in August 2011 on the rules governing nonprofit applications was included in the inspector general’s report, and the IRS said two months ago that the chief counsel himself was not present, only his staffers were (the Office of Chief Counsel employs approximately 1,600 lawyers). > > Alex Seitz-Wald > Alex Seitz-Wald is Salon’s political reporter. Email him at [aseitz-wald@salon.com](mailto:aseitz-wald@salon.com), and follow him on Twitter @aseitzwald. But never underestimate an idiot like ISSA I guess. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/211 "2013-07-20T00:58:16Z")
More attempts to obfuscate. Yes, there was no political motivations at the Cincinnati level, and Carter Hull certainly had none either. So now we find out what the counsel’s office’s motivation was. Wanting to only see Tea Party applications and not progressive applications doesn’t happen by accident. As for the “old news” aspect, yes, we knew the counsel’s office was involved, but we hadn’t heard from Carter Hull, who was in the counsel’s office, that it wasn’t his idea. I’m sure most liberal writers understand these distinctions, so I question their good faith. As for Democratic Congressmen, Elijah Cummings is losing all of his credibility. His position seems to be that if the White House didn’t order Elizabeth Hofacre to target his political enemies, that there’s no story here. It’s getting so predictable that I can even predict the spin if we find out that the counsel himself personally came up with the whole idea, and was politically motivated in doing it: “See, the White House wasn’t involved! See how bad this makes Darrel Issa look!” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/212 "2013-07-20T01:05:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > “See, the White House wasn’t involved! See how bad this makes Darrel Issa look!” That’s not really fair. It’s not like anyone has to try very HARD to make Issa look bad… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/213 "2013-07-20T01:12:01Z")
Thus the desire to make what the IRS did about Issa. We’ve seen this movie before with Ronnie Earle. Tom Delay committed multiple felonies, but it was really about Ronnie Earle. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/214 "2013-07-20T01:28:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m a very dangerous conservative. I actually read Daily Kos, a lot. Although I read TPM more. I’m on to you guys.🙂 No, you are not, you are a useless tea pamphleteer that does not care that they spew bullshit even when you acknowledge that they do. As for the matter at hand, I see your ¨actual process¨ as arriving to a conclusion with no evidence whatsoever, I see your post and there is \*\*nothing \*\*to show that the evidence found that progressive groups were also targeted to be false. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/215 "2013-07-20T03:22:11Z")
There’s no evidence that progressive groups were targeted. All your side has produced is a BOLO list. But there’s nothing unusual about a BOLO list. Prove that DC officials demanded progressive applications, then you have something. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/216 "2013-07-20T03:24:10Z")
Nah, that’s ok, we’ll just wait for the big bombshell what’s coming any day now. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/217 "2013-07-20T03:30:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s no evidence that progressive groups were targeted. All your side has produced is a BOLO list. But there’s nothing unusual about a BOLO list. Prove that DC officials demanded progressive applications, then you have something. [http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130718/NEWS/307180144/IRS-watchdog-just-got-documents-about-progressive-groups?nclick\_check=1](http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130718/NEWS/307180144/IRS-watchdog-just-got-documents-about-progressive-groups?nclick_check=1) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — The inspector general who concluded that the Internal Revenue Service had inappropriately targeted Tea Party groups blamed the tax agency on Thursday for failing to give him **additional documents that showed progressive groups were subjected to similar screenings.** > > J. Russell George, who serves as an IRS watchdog, said in prepared testimony to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee that only last week did his office receive documents showing the term “progressive” was used to flag cases for additional review. > > “They were not provided during our audit, even though similar documents that list ‘tea party’ but not ‘progressive’ were,” George said. “I am disturbed that these documents were not provided to our auditors at the outset, and we are currently reviewing this issue.” Dangerous? Sure you milk-toast non-straight shooter. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/218 "2013-07-20T03:33:47Z")
Well, that can’t be the latest bombshell, that was dated yesterday! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/219 "2013-07-20T03:43:48Z")
Plus we don’t know what the documents say. Probably just the same thing as before: that progressive groups were on BOLO lists. If progressive groups were being targeted by DC, Carter Hull would have said so. ---
**Author:** ![fudrucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fudrucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fudrucker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/220 "2013-07-20T03:51:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m a very dangerous conservative. Me as well. > [@adaher](#): > > Aside from that, there’s nothing in that post that provides any enlightenment at all. It continues to push the falsehood that progressive groups were targeted, and furthermore adds to the lie by saying it was “edited out”. But that doesn’t matter to the leftists here. They will defend their corrupt big government agenda at any cost. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729.md?page=12)