# HA! The IRS "Scandal" Was A Crock O' Shit! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729 "2013-07-05T16:35:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/81 "2013-07-07T23:21:45Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > So you assume that everything Issa makes up is true and that it’s up to the government to convince you otherwise. Great. But here’s the Captain Kirk Mindfuck—Issa is also part of the government. Jesus, I don’t ask for much, but please have Adaher be a 60s AI run amok. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/82 "2013-07-07T23:34:41Z")
I didn’t go that far. However, when the government is accused of wrongdoing, the only proper response is transparency. When they go into a defensive crouch and start hiding things, that is evidence of guilt in a way that it would not be with a criminal defendant. And that’s pretty much how the public sees it, rightfully so. ---
**Author:** ![sylmar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@sylmar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylmar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/83 "2013-07-07T23:56:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The government isn’t innocent until proven guilty. The government has to prove it is innocent. That’s the responsibility that comes with power. So if someone makes a baseless accusation that an official is a child molester, the official is a child molester until they can “prove” their innocence? Strange… I would think waving any need for actual evidence to corroborate a heinous charge would result in a glut of slanderous accusations by people with an axe to grind. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/84 "2013-07-08T00:09:27Z")
That’s an individual. I’m referring to the government as an entity, and the professional responsibility of those who run it. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/85 "2013-07-08T00:25:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I didn’t go that far. However, when the government is accused of wrongdoing, the only proper response is transparency. When they go into a defensive crouch and start hiding things, that is evidence of guilt in a way that it would not be with a criminal defendant. > > And that’s pretty much how the public sees it, rightfully so. Can someone help me out here? I seem to recall that it was Issa who wouldn’t release the transcripts that ostensibly vindicated the administration–that it was Issa who skullfucked transparency. But I lack a cite. To return to the general skullfucking of logic and rational thought, it seems that the basic Rove strategy is paying off. If you can pretend there’s a scandal and get all of the Fox Eaters on board and enough of the dull-witted to accept that something is afoot, then success! Between Benghazi and the IRS (to name just two), he’s got adaher in a santorum-like froth of indigence. It _might_ make sense if there was any substance behind the so-called scandals, but then that would be a different thread, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/86 "2013-07-08T00:39:12Z")
Issa didn’t release the transcripts because they weren’t complete yet. Issa of course shouldn’t have selectively leaked tidbits favorable to his case, but it wasn’t a lack of transparency. Furthermore, Issa isn’t accused of targeting conservatives for harassment, the administration is. And there is a scandal, we haven’t even begun to scratch the surface. We still don’t know how Austen Goolsbee got the Kochs’ tax returns, but given that the IRS was handing confidential documents over to left-wing organizations like ProPublica, it’s pretty obvious that all he had to do was ask. ---
**Author:** ![sylmar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@sylmar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylmar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/87 "2013-07-08T00:39:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s an individual. I’m referring to the government as an entity, and the professional responsibility of those who run it. 2(Pi)r ? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/88 "2013-07-08T00:51:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I didn’t go that far. However, when the government is accused of wrongdoing, the only proper response is transparency. When they go into a defensive crouch and start hiding things, that is evidence of guilt in a way that it would not be with a criminal defendant. > > And that’s pretty much how the public sees it, rightfully so. The public doesn’t appear to be paying that much attention. If they are, what are they paying attention to? How the whole thing is turning to shit in Issa’s hands? He doesn’t have any problem, his people eat this shit with a spoon. You got an update,.big news we are missing? Bring. Or de-access pie integration input valve. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/89 "2013-07-08T00:58:21Z")
So, the entire thread is really just a Pitting of one guy who sort of said something like the OP is crowing about?? Yes, the ‘scandal’ that almost no one on the ‘dope thought was true (i.e. that Obama was directly involved in targeting right wing groups using the IRS) was, in fact, a Crock O’ Shit. Geeze, wasn’t NFBW’s train wreck about this enough? Did we really need another thread to discuss the strawman of 'dopers who actually felt he WAS directly involved in?? 😛 You really knocked those strawmen ‘tighty-righty Ricky Retardos’ who infest the 'dope down, 'luci! All 1-2 (perhaps) of them. Nice! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/90 "2013-07-08T01:14:03Z")
Nobody made you read any, much less force you to comment. Unless you got some other problem. Something you want to share with the group? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/91 "2013-07-08T01:32:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Nobody made you read any, much less force you to comment. Unless you got some other problem. Something you want to share with the group? Well, doc, I have this little sore… But no, 'luci, if you really feel the need to call out strawmen and bust the chops of non-existent 'dopes who felt Obama was directly involved, then feel free. Hell, NFBW has been batting at strawmen in multiple threads for weeks now, why not you too? Knock your(selves) out! Go crazy, 'Mano. ETA: but for the sake of small furry animals, please, PLEASE…no walls of text. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/92 "2013-07-08T02:05:01Z")
Not that it matters, but “walls of text”? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/93 "2013-07-08T02:28:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Issa didn’t release the transcripts because they weren’t complete yet. Issa of course shouldn’t have selectively leaked tidbits favorable to his case, but it wasn’t a lack of transparency. So how did Democrat Elijah Cummings get his hands on the complete transcripts and hold them for two days before releasing them to the public? Issa is the chairman of the committee. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/94 "2013-07-08T14:39:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not that it matters, but “walls of text”? Huh? It doesn’t really matter, as you say ‘luci, especially since your own, um, somewhat sparse style really wouldn’t lend itself to walls o’ text, but it’s one of the lovely things about NFBW that really make any discussion with him such a fun and exciting experience. I was making a somewhat ironic comparison between this thread and his obsession with batting at strawmen, which (in this case) was mostly tongue in cheek. Sorry if I killed your ranting thread…didn’t mean to be a buzzkill on this man. Maybe you can rally the troops and push on with smacking down all those 'dopers out there who thought the IRS scandal thingy was all, er, master-minded by Obama and his furry little minions. If you could work in the false flag angle that it was actually the Republicans who were trying to frame Obama, well…that would be really something to see. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/95 "2013-07-08T19:02:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Were there people on this MB who were claiming Obama was personally involved? More than one or two nuts? Even that many? > > Is it impossible for this to be a “scandal” unless president Blackenstein was personally involved. (Credit to Bill Maher for that expression.) Well do we think it was any kind of scandal anymore, with or without an Obama link? And of course people were implying a link with teh white house. > [@elucidator](#): > > Well, that’s the trouble with quibbles. (OK, positively the last time. Never again.) /groan > [@adaher](#): > > Never said it was. The seriousness of the wrongdoing is not relevant to the responsibility for the wrongdoing. > > Although you have to admit, Bush wasn’t in the habit of blaming his underlings for failures. That’s all Obama ever does. The seriousness matters. I used to think that lying about a blowjob was as bad as any other lie a president could tell. Then Bush lied us into a war in Iraq and I realized that the seriousness of the wrongdoing matters. > [@adaher](#): > > So it’s not like the idea of skewed polls just came out of fantasyland. Yeah it was pretty much the intersection of wishful thinking and conspiracy theory. > [@adaher](#): > > Basically, Werfel went looking for something exculpatory and that was the best he could find. So you don’t think that having progressive and conservative words on the BOLO list exculpatory to the narrative that the IRS was only picking on conservative groups? You don’t think it matters that the manager was politically conservative? You don’t think this was an attempt to find a scandal where none existed? > [@adaher](#): > > Furthermore, Issa isn’t accused of targeting conservatives for harassment, the administration is. No, Issa is being accused of manufacturing scandal by selectively disseminating facts. > [@](#): > > And there is a scandal, we haven’t even begun to scratch the surface. We still don’t know how Austen Goolsbee got the Kochs’ tax returns, but given that the IRS was handing confidential documents over to left-wing organizations like ProPublica, it’s pretty obvious that all he had to do was ask. Is this the “scandal” you are talking about? [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-07/white-house-adviser-goolsbee-s-comment-on-koch-taxes-reviewed-by-treasury.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-07/white-house-adviser-goolsbee-s-comment-on-koch-taxes-reviewed-by-treasury.html) Or is there something more recent? And what is this propublica scandal you are talking about? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/96 "2013-07-08T19:30:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Let me explain my view. I do not believe Obama ordered the targeting in the sense that he passed orders down through the normal chain of command. However, I do believe Obama is responsible for the targeting for two reasons: > > 1. It’s his administration. The buck stops with him. This was uncontroversial during the Bush years, it shouldn’t be controversial now. Democratic accountability requires that a President be responsible for his administration, which is unelected. If he can’t control it, then the voters can’t control it and we don’t live in a democracy or a republic anymore. We live in an unaccountable bureaucratic state. > > So no, he didn’t order it, but he’s responsible for it, and the public is so far holding him responsible for it, just as the public normally holds Presidents responsible for their administrations’ actions. Well, you make some good points, **and if there had been any targeting at all going on, rather than some overworked bureaucrats just trying to plow thru a pile of work by taking a rather obvious short-cut,** then you might be able to lay responsibility on his desk. But there wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/97 "2013-07-09T04:03:03Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Hasn’t **John Mace** sort of railroaded this discussion into the thickets of irrelevant detail? > > The point is the wider one that there is no scandal at all, at least, no left/right political scandal. Some people in the IRS made a mistake, but not a scandalous one that disproportionately affects people of any particular political stripe. That’s the story here–the story that somehow the IRS was targeting conservative groups, with or without Obama’s blessing, under or not under his oversight, turns out to be false from the get go. Good Job. The IRS mistake was not a scandal. The reason we were told it was a scandal was about some ‘critical mass with the public’ had been reached. The sheep theory. One heads that way and all follow. I said the only reason it was exciting enough for a little mistake was that the right wing generated enough suspicion without facts that Obama was involved. Obama’s enemies list was cited. Noonan writes a piece in the WSJ that this was worse than all previous scandals because power elites were targeting ‘the people’ … the Tea Party People. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. If the OP wanted this to be a discussion of the “wider issue” he shouldn’t have made his only validating piece of evidence the fact that some Republican said Obama wasn’t involved. If he chooses to move the goal post, that’s fine going forward. I was responding to the OP as written, not how you might have wanted it to be written. When Mace goes for the ‘goalposts were moved’ argument we know that Mace has lost his thoughts for an argument. > [@XT](#): > > So, the entire thread is really just a Pitting of one guy who sort of said something like the OP is crowing about?? Yes, the ‘scandal’ that almost no one on the ‘dope thought was true (i.e. that Obama was directly involved in targeting right wing groups using the IRS) was, in fact, a Crock O’ Shit. > > Geeze, wasn’t NFBW’s train wreck about this enough? My commentary on this IRS scandal went beyond the ‘dopers’ . the IRS mistake reached ‘critical mass’ was because of the link to Obama whether proven or not. It wasn’t even a mistake the more I think about it. All these Tea Party groups should not have been given Tax Exempt Status ACCORDING TO THE ACTUAL WORDING OF THE LAW… “Exclusively” doing social work or education. Calling Obama a Socialist is not social welfare. [quote=“XT, post:91, topic:662729”] Well, doc, I have this little sore… . Hell, NFBW has been batting at strawmen in multiple threads for weeks now, why not you too? QUOTE] So Cite post where I used a ‘strawman’…XT. T&D tried to lay that on me too. It didn’t work. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > There is no one here that claims that Bush wanted peace, (more straw man nonsense). T&D > > \*Your credibility should suffer for the above comment and accusation that I put up strawman nonsense. If you will re-read what I wrote from what you cited you should easily see exactly that you have wrongfully interpreted my clearly written words. > > I clearly and plainly wrote, “I find it incredible that so many here wish to suppress the Bush “I wanted peace” lie.” > > Then you write that I made up some strawman nonsense that posters here claim that "Bush wanted peace?. There are plenty here that can’t stick to the facts and reasonable discussions about much. They go to ‘strawmen’… walls of text… and ''this bores me" when the facts don’t go their way. > [@XT](#): > > It doesn’t really matter, as you say ‘luci, especially since your own, um, somewhat sparse style really wouldn’t lend itself to walls o’ text, but it’s one of the lovely things about NFBW that really make any discussion with him such a fun and exciting experience. I was making a somewhat ironic comparison between this thread and his obsession with batting at strawmen, which (in this case) was mostly tongue in cheek. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, you make some good points, **and if there had been any targeting at all going on, rather than some overworked bureaucrats just trying to plow thru a pile of work by taking a rather obvious short-cut,** then you might be able to lay responsibility on his desk. But there wasn’t. So for all who argued that this was a ‘scandal’ - What do you call it now? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/98 "2013-07-09T06:03:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > …didn’t mean to be a buzzkill on this man… Groovy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/99 "2013-07-09T14:56:37Z")
> [@XT](#): > > So for all who argued that this was a ‘scandal’ - What do you call it now? Well, I was outraged over the “scandal,” then when the facts came out (rather than the Republican versiojn of the facts), I apologized for beating up on the IRS and moved on. At this point I am having some trouble distinguishing between James O Keefe and conservative media and politicians generally. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729/100 "2013-07-09T14:58:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, I was outraged over the “scandal,” then when the facts came out (rather than the Republican versiojn of the facts), I apologized for beating up on the IRS and moved on. > > At this point I am having some trouble distinguishing between James O Keefe and conservative media and politicians generally. That quote wasn’t from me. Just saying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ha-the-irs-scandal-was-a-crock-o-shit/662729.md?page=6)