# Hackers: Cavaliers or criminals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2001, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858 "2001-08-12T01:15:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![aenea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c68b51/32.png) [@aenea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aenea)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2001, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/21 "2001-08-13T19:40:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > You’d be surprised. Look at the success of the _National Enquirer_. Ahh, but the Inquirer (among other rag mags) has been successfully sued several times for slander, libel, defamation of character, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/22 "2001-08-14T04:50:50Z")
Also, as I understand it, in the US there is limited protection from defamation for famous people. I’m really unsure on the extent of that though. It would potential allow the Enquirer to get away with some amazing libel. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/23 "2001-08-14T05:37:16Z")
Here’s a link that will scare the shit out of any of you that have your own web server or board. And might make you change your mind about not wanting to jail kids who crack: [The Attacks on grc.com](http://grc.com/dos/grcdos.htm) ---
**Author:** ![frock75](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frock75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frock75)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/24 "2001-08-14T05:53:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cykrider \* > Maybe you could give me an example of where the information should be a secret? \*\* My bank account #, bank account total, my penis size(very private info) ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/25 "2001-08-14T06:05:53Z")
> [@](#): > > bandwidth flooding Zombie attack Trojans. > [@](#): > > Untangling and extracting the meaning from the packet capture dialog of the average attack-neutered mutant Zombie is never fun. I love the terminology. I’m bookmarking that site. The conversation with ^bOss^ is fascininating. ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/26 "2001-08-14T14:15:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by frock75 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by cykrider \* > > Maybe you could give me an example of where the information should be a secret? \*\* > > My bank account #, bank account total, my penis size(very private info) \*\* Ok, that’s fine. I don’t think I ever said ripping off credit card numbers, bank statements, or penis sizes is a good idea. The best comparison I can think of now is martial arts. Their is nothing wrong with practicing and learning, but if you go out and use your skills to hurt others, you deserve to be punished. I really don’t think it’s ok to do DoS attacks, ping-o-death, or brute force attacks but I think it’s a good idea to know how those work in order to protect yourself and your network. Please correct me if I’m off base at all **Anthracite.** I believe and stand for a majority of the ethics of hackers around the world but I would never do anything harmful to others in order to obtain freedom of information etc. I have other morals and ethics that come first. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/27 "2001-08-14T14:40:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Leaper \* > \*\*Well, if [slashdot.org](http://slashdot.org) is any indication, it seems a lot of those people who are inclined to become hackers/crackers are libertarian, and specifically hate the idea of copyright and intellectual property . . . It’s their way of trying to take down what they see as an evil institution, that of copyright/intellectual property. > \*\* “Libertarian” would be the absolute **last** word I would use to describe a person who opposes copyright and the concept of intellectual property. Libertarianism, after all, is entirely predicated on allowing property owners to make all decisions with respect to their property, be it real or intellectual. The word you are looking for is “anarchist.” ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/28 "2001-08-14T15:37:06Z")
> [@](#): > > The word you are looking for is “anarchist.” Yup. But really, most of the 31337 HaXoR cRoWWd don’t think about anarchismy, or libertarianism, or any other fucking “ism.” While some of them might try to justify their actions with bullshit about “freedom of information” and “copyright abolition,” in reality they’re just doing it to have fun at others’ expense. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/29 "2001-08-15T03:35:35Z")
Out of curiosity I tried “sub 7 server” through [http://www.dogpile.com](http://www.dogpile.com). If you use ICQ, I’d seriously recommend checking out [http://www.sub7server.cjb.net](http://www.sub7server.cjb.net) to see if you’re listed there. I gather its a zombie list, but I don’t know enough about it to be able to say. **Cykrider** : > [@](#): > > I believe and stand for a majority of the ethics of hackers around the world but I would never do anything harmful to others in order to obtain freedom of information etc. I have other morals and ethics that come first. What sort of information do you liberate? Most people who have useful information don’t want it liberated because its seriously valuable. ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/30 "2001-08-15T04:07:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart \* > \*\* > **Cykrider** : > > > [@](#): > > > > I believe and stand for a majority of the ethics of hackers around the world but I would never do anything harmful to others in order to obtain freedom of information etc. I have other morals and ethics that come first. > > What sort of information do you liberate? > > Most people who have useful information don’t want it liberated because its seriously valuable. \*\* Information on how to make phreaking boxes, i.e. blue box, red boxes, etc. shouldn’t be look upon as a bad thing IMHO. Virus programming, requires a great deal of skill and knowledge about computers. Although I’ve never written one and probably never will, I have no problem with it as long as they don’t “release it into the wild.” Modified tone dialers are now supposedly illegal to own because the ower _could possibly_ cheat the phone company. If I owned a gun I _could possibly_ kill someone. Keep in mind Dave that I don’t think I’ve actually ever liberated any information. I guess I’m more of the “ya, this is what I stand for but I’m not going to go out of my way or going to do anything about it.” I just think that people have a right to know and let them act upon the information however they want and let them suffer the consequences. This may not be the best idea because not everyone will do the right thing with the information that they learn, but I think that (hopefully) for everyone 1 idiot that wants to mess something up, their will be 10 people figuring out how to stop him or her. I hope I haven’t hijacked this thread too off topic. ☹ Please let me know and I’ll kindly shut the hell up. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/31 "2001-08-15T08:54:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cykrider \* > \*\* > Information on how to make phreaking boxes, i.e. blue box, red boxes, etc. shouldn’t be look upon as a bad thing IMHO. > > Virus programming, requires a great deal of skill and knowledge about computers. Although I’ve never written one and probably never will, I have no problem with it as long as they don’t “release it into the wild.” > > Modified tone dialers are now supposedly illegal to own because the ower _could possibly_ cheat the phone company. If I owned a gun I _could possibly_ kill someone. > > Keep in mind Dave that I don’t think I’ve actually ever liberated any information. I guess I’m more of the “ya, this is what I stand for but I’m not going to go out of my way or going to do anything about it.” I just think that people have a right to know and let them act upon the information however they want and let them suffer the consequences. This may not be the best idea because not everyone will do the right thing with the information that they learn, but I think that (hopefully) for everyone 1 idiot that wants to mess something up, their will be 10 people figuring out how to stop him or her. > > I hope I haven’t hijacked this thread too off topic. ☹ Please let me know and I’ll kindly shut the hell up. \*\* Nah, its actually kind of interesting. Out of interest, again, I went looking for more info on this, and found [this](http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#WHAT_IS). So apparently those in the trade distinguish between “hackers” and “crackers”. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/32 "2001-08-15T16:20:49Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cykrider \* > \*\* > > Nah, its actually kind of interesting. > > Out of interest, again, I went looking for more info on this, and found [this](http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#WHAT_IS). > > So apparently those in the trade distinguish between “hackers” and “crackers”. \*\* I have seen this before, but I still think his deffinitions are bunk. I have seen people trying to sanitize the term hacker like this in the last 10 years or so, but thats not what it originally meant. Hackers hack into systems. Hence the name. But not all Hackers are destructive, many get in just to prove they can get in, others just to look around, or learn more about the system. A small precentage of hackers are crashers, trying to do damage. And cracker almost always referes to cracking softward protection, not system security. At least thats the way it used to be. I stopped doing such things many years ago, when there got to be a real possibility of going to jail for it. Used to be, there were not really much in the way of laws in place to cover it. ---
**Author:** ![Swede\_Hollow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Swede\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swede_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/33 "2001-08-16T00:48:24Z")
I just wanted to make a comment about destructive hackers (crackers, crashers…), whether it is intentional or accidental. Many of them say they broke into various companies’ web sites and compromised credit card numbers and other information (occasionally posting them anonymously on the web) or making and releasing a virus just to “make a point” and show that the danger does exist. I’ve seen several interviews of these “crackers” and that is a common reason. That is like saying a gun control advocate would go downtown and kill hundreds of people just to prove that guns can be dangerous. There are better ways to help make the world safe and secure then to try bringing everything crashing down to “make everything better.” _Cykrider_’s “White Hat” hackers are a group I have some respect for, but they can still cause a lot of accidental damage. People trying to break into a bank’s web site can impact thousands of people, disrupt business (not just the bank, but also the bank’s customers), and just make it harder to get through their day. What happens to people trying to close on a house and their mortgage information is unavailable due to a computer being down, or someone overdrawing their account because their deposit didn’t get posted to their account. Someone breaking into a computer should expect punishment. Companies make certain information available to the public, that doesn’t mean that everything the company owns should be taken from them. Sorry about ranting, but I’ve seen some of this damage firsthand. You could say that that shows the system was vulnerable, but a simple upgrade would have fixed that if they knew about the flaw. Rebuilding entire databases, paying large amounts of overtime, paying for special couriers to recall offsite archives and backups, and canceling the system person’s scheduled vacation is NOT a valid cost to pay for a warning. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/34 "2001-08-16T01:14:03Z")
I don’t see what y’all have against crackers. Sheeee-it. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858/35 "2001-08-16T02:02:03Z")
The only thing worth ‘liberating’ is porn. I once cracked a porn web site without writing a single line, and using a legitimate password. I got around the intrusive, time-wasting interface they had there, and got down to the nitty-gritty, simply by studying the program and directing the bowser to go right to the jpegs. The direct method worked to ‘extend’ the time alotted to me by, oh, a few months. Heck, it was once the indisputable pop-up champion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackers-cavaliers-or-criminals/75858.md?page=1)