# Hacking Reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 10, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hacking-reality/513275 "2009-10-10T04:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hacking-reality/513275/81 "2009-10-18T22:32:22Z")
**kevlaw** I propose3d a definition of conciseness earlier in the thread. However 10 hours of looking at a conveyor belt at work have given me time to think it over and realize it’s inadequate. Here’s my updated defintion, change in italics.: Conciseness is an emergent property of a sufficiently complex and rightly organized\* and self organizing\* system. Also by emergent property I mean a property that’s a result of a system running as a whole, but without substance it’s self. Another example of emergent property would be an Operating system. There’s no physical part on your computer that is the operating system, the operating system is a result of your computer executing recorded instructions. Another example would be a line of people. The line by it’s self has no substance, it’s an emergent property of how people are organized. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hacking-reality/513275/82 "2009-10-18T23:24:48Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Conciseness is an emergent property of a sufficiently complex and rightly organized\* and self organizing\* system. ISTM that that definition is sufficiently broad to include lots of things (is an ant colony conscious? a political rally?. It also focuses on how the thing comes about rather that what _it_ is. [QUOTE=KellyCriterion] I can’t give any clearer explanation than I have given. [/QUOTE] It’s hard to pin down where it comes from or what affects it if we can’t explain clearly what it is. If self-awareness is the key, it seems pretty straightforward to program an electronic device - like a toaster - to be self aware. There are several animal species that pass the self-awareness test (the mirror test). I bet it’s easy to program a robot to recognize itself in a mirror. My own personal opinion is that _consciousness_ is the answer to a question that is wrong like _ether_ or _phlogisten_ where previous answers to misplaced questions. Future neuroscientists and philosophers will look back at the quest to define, find or recreate consciousness and laugh. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hacking-reality/513275/83 "2009-10-19T00:45:47Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > ISTM that that definition is sufficiently broad to include lots of things (is an ant colony conscious? a political rally?. It also focuses on how the thing comes about rather that what _it_ is. Hmm you’re right. How about: Conciseness is an emergent property of a sufficiently complex and rightly organized and self _improving_ system _as data is assimilated_. That doesn’t knock out ant colonies as they will reorganize in response to things such as a flood, or winter or something, however I’d make the argument that there’s also a kind of group or meta-consciousness. By that I mean how groups can do things smarter than any particular organism, or behave as one unit. Like if you brain stormed with 5 other people at your political rally and came up with a project different than any one of you would have came up with alone, the work of a seemingly different consciousness. Meta-consciousness isn’t really consciousness as we think of the term, but it can provide the same results ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hacking-reality/513275/84 "2009-10-19T01:05:24Z")
Actually thinking on it a bit more a meta-consciousness could be a full blown consciousness if it’s big enough, and organized well enough. Is one of neurons aware of you’re consciousness? Prolly not sense a neuron by it’s self is aware of nothing, however the sum total of all your neurons interacting is your consciousness. Likewise if your rally workgroup is a few billion and properly organized, what’s the difference between impulses of word, or electrochemical impulses? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hacking-reality/513275.md?page=4)