# Hackneyed plots that could be improved by inversion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 13, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397 "2010-03-13T22:00:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/81 "2010-03-16T02:35:52Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Oh, the invaders need not “rightfully subjugate the wicked”… the payoff would be the epiphany when the audience realizes the natives are just as much asshats as the conquerors… There was a surprising-yet-sobering-yet-frustrating-yet-oddly-satisfying epiphany in the wonnnnnderful little film _ **Local Hero** _. When the “natives” find out that the Big Oil Company wants to buy their village and that they’ll raze it to build a refinery and the villagers are secretly meeting in the church and want to get as much money as possible for their village and are even more materialistic and mercenary than the oil execs. The movie is excellent, and worth watching despite any spoilage. The performances, the music (Mark Knopfler) and the script are magical. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/82 "2010-03-16T03:18:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Another one – a girl fights to join a boys’ sports team but ends up totally sucking and not being able to compete with them at all. Extra points if it’s because a sudden growth spurt makes her breasts expand\* to the point where their size and weight interfere with her athletic ability 😃 \*For real! Actress Soleil Moon Frye had to get breast-reduction surgery three months before her sixteenth birthday! ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/83 "2010-03-16T04:17:34Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > a movie about say the Battle of Little Bighorn where the heroic Lakota and Cheyenne warriors defeat the villainous General Custer might be successful. _Little Big Man._ Okay, it wasn’t “about” the Battle of Little Bighorn, but that battle was in it, Custer was portrayed unsympathetically (he was nuts), and the Indians were pretty much the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/84 "2010-03-16T04:26:26Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I haven’t seen _Apocalypto_, but it’s my understanding that a lot of people did think the depiction of the Mayan people was offensive and racist. There’s a section about this in the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypto#Controversies). So? The film got made and people watched it. If you had seen the movie and felt the same way as you understand a few others to feel about that movie – what would be your point? ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/85 "2010-03-16T04:31:17Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > What I would like to see is the subjugation of a native people treated as tragic without the natives portrayed as noble savages. No group of people deserves to be conquered just because many of them have character flaws. If that were the case, everyone in the world would deserve to be conquered. Conquest-minded, subjugating empire vs. a horribly insular, backwards natives? Basically “Imperial Japan vs Corrupt Hick Town,” to go by the archetypes? Probably the best way to spin that would be as a cautionary tale, or an allegory. But depending on how dark you want to play it, you could make the moral “yes, the Empire™ is brutal, cruel, and self-interested but they’re at least _capable_ of technological and cultural progress—the Natives™ they conquered stagnated, and now there’s nothing left for them but suffering _horrifically_ for it.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/86 "2010-03-16T10:12:57Z")
A few years back there was a production of _Peter Grimes_ where Grimes was the villain, not the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/87 "2010-03-16T11:59:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it is a perfectly traditional, even hackneyed, thing of its kind. There’s nothing at all unusual about a crime story that has the audience rooting for the criminal. In cinema, that’s almost as old as cinema itself; in literature, it’s at least as old as the Robin Hood ballads (the oldest of which probably did not feature Robin Hood giving his loot to the poor, and certainly did not feature Robin Hood sticking up for the rightful King Richard against the usurping Prince John). The popular Robin Hood, the one most of us know, is fighting for the oppressed, not assassinating a popular President on behalf of a mysterious consortium. Can you come up with an actual workable example of this hackneyed tradition you described? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/88 "2010-03-16T12:43:34Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I really don’t think you’ve thought this through. And I really think you’re thinking it over too much 😉 Many of the other inversions mentioned in this thread would ALSO wear thin if done feature-length, and/or potentially elicit the\* “Hey! That’s not funny, man! That’s a terrible thing when it happens in reality!” \*reaction from a large segment of the public. Some of us just enjoy contemplating the what-ifs of a curveball thrown at the public’s sensibilities once in a while. Not as a regular, repetitive thing, mind you, that becomes shock-jockery, just being annoying for its own sake. So I’d likely lose $50 million making that movie… which is why I wouldn’t make it until after having several hits under my belt 😃 (More seriously, maybe I’m just not of the school that an auteur has to avoid work that may be possibly given unsavory interpretations.) ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/89 "2010-03-16T13:55:26Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > What I would like to see is the subjugation of a native people treated as tragic without the natives portrayed as noble savages. No group of people deserves to be conquered just because many of them have character flaws. If that were the case, everyone in the world would deserve to be conquered. I can’t think of a movie that does this exactly, though Little Big Man comes close, but in books, you have got to take a look at the \*Flashman \*series by George Macdonald Fraser, especially _Flashman and the Indians_. The conquest of the natives is portrayed as tragic but inevitable, with a substantial helping of asshats on both sides of the conflict–and the titular Flashman, of course, the worst of the bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/90 "2010-03-16T13:59:39Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > What I would like to see is the subjugation of a native people treated as tragic without the natives portrayed as noble savages. No group of people deserves to be conquered just because many of them have character flaws. If that were the case, everyone in the world would deserve to be conquered. > [@Lamia](#): > > This is a much more worthwhile goal – it isn’t necessary to portray Native Americans as proto-hippies in order to make the characters sympathetic! And another movie to like starring a generally douchebaggy actor - the _Maverick_ movie’s interactions featuring the Native American who plays up the stupid/superstitious native thing in order to shake down a Russian nobleman for cash. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/91 "2010-03-16T14:06:15Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > You don’t often see a lynching victim who was actually guilty of the crime or Nazis executing someone who was a complete scumbag. That last one would make a really interesting movie, I think. After all, Nazi Germany surely had criminals of the ordinary sort, just like everyplace else. A plot along the lines of “Genuine war criminal SS officer hunts murderer” could be a neat character study, if done well. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/92 "2010-03-16T14:49:16Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > And another movie to like starring a generally douchebaggy actor - the _Maverick_ movie’s interactions featuring the Native American who plays up the stupid/superstitious native thing in order to shake down a Russian nobleman for cash. Chief Wild Eagle was a con artist on “F Troop” thirty years earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/93 "2010-03-16T15:01:33Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > That last one would make a really interesting movie, I think. After all, Nazi Germany surely had criminals of the ordinary sort, just like everyplace else. A plot along the lines of “Genuine war criminal SS officer hunts murderer” could be a neat character study, if done well. Maybe try a biopic on [George Konrad Morgen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Konrad_Morgen), an SS Judge-Advocate. An…interesting fellow. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/94 "2010-03-16T15:51:51Z")
I walked away from _The Pursuit of Happyness_ with the exact opposite opinion of what the director was going for. I saw a selfish failing father put his child through misery for the chance to roll the dice on one more pipe dream, that it worked is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/95 "2010-03-16T16:33:07Z")
There’s the alt-history novel and movie “Fatherland” starrring Rutger Hauer as a Nazi detective in 1960s Germany. In the story WW2 ended in a stalemate between the western allies and Germany. In the 60s, President Joe Kennedy is making the first official visit to the Reich by an American president. Hauer’s character becomes involved with unraveling a conspiracy that covered up the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/96 "2010-03-16T16:33:49Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > So? The film got made and people watched it. If you had seen the movie and felt the same way as you understand a few others to feel about that movie – what would be your point? What’s YOUR point? I really don’t understand why you brought up _Apocalypto_ at all, since it doesn’t sound that much like the movie suggested by **JRDelirious**. I certainly never said it would be impossible to make a movie with Native American villains, I said it would be considered offensive to make a movie where all the Native American characters were evil (except for the sexy love interest of the white hero) and no more deserving of sympathy than their white conquerors. _Apocalypto_ apparently presented a far more balanced view of Native Americans than the hypothetical movie we’ve been discussing, with both the good guys and the bad guys being Maya, and it was still considered offensive by some for the same reasons I suggested. A more extreme movie would be considered even more offensive. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > And I really think you’re thinking it over too much 😉 Many of the other inversions mentioned in this thread would ALSO wear thin if done feature-length, and/or potentially elicit the\* “Hey! That’s not funny, man! That’s a terrible thing when it happens in reality!” \*reaction from a large segment of the public. Isn’t this basically what I said back in post #22? This kind of idea might be funny in a comedy skit but would be considered offensive as a serious feature film. ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/97 "2010-03-16T20:45:47Z")
One of my favorite TV gems was an episode of the new Twilight Zone, called “A Small Talent for War.” Earth gets word of an impending visit by ultra-powerful aliens who threatens the end of the world in a matter of days unless humans do something about their endless wars. Subsequently, the world’s leaders gather at the U.N. to hammer out a treaty abolishing warfare, eliminating all their weapons, etc. Turns out… ([spoiler](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Small_Talent_for_War)) I always loved that inversion. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/98 "2010-03-18T23:59:07Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > There’s the alt-history novel and movie “Fatherland” starrring Rutger Hauer as a Nazi detective in 1960s Germany. In the story WW2 ended in a stalemate between the western allies and Germany… Ooh, loved the book-- had NO idea it had been made into a movie. Is it worth renting? Hmm, Rutger H. was no slouch in Bladerunner (or that over-the-top blind samurai-ish movie: Blind Justice?). ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397/99 "2010-03-19T05:07:49Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > One of my favorite TV gems was an episode of the new Twilight Zone, called “A Small Talent for War.” Earth gets word of an impending visit by ultra-powerful aliens who threatens the end of the world in a matter of days unless humans do something about their endless wars. > > Subsequently, the world’s leaders gather at the U.N. to hammer out a treaty abolishing warfare, eliminating all their weapons, etc. > > Turns out… ([spoiler](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Small_Talent_for_War)) > > I always loved that inversion. That was a great episode. The alien was castigating Earth for its “puny weapons” and “petty wars.” He pointed to the United Nations and said “This building’s very existence tells us all we need to know about Earth.” Everyone assumes the aliens are, like the ones in “Day the Earth Stood Still,” idealistic pacifists who want us to abandon militarism. Instead, he was angry that we hadn’t invented MORE powerful weapons and waged war on a greater scale- making us useless as intergalactic Hessians, which is what he WANTED us to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hackneyed-plots-that-could-be-improved-by-inversion/532397.md?page=4)