# Haiku **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 9, 2000, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629 "2000-09-09T21:36:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2000, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/1 "2000-09-09T21:36:41Z")
I once ran across a book that gave two or three Japanese words that were said to be meaningless, but used in haiku to meet the number of syllables demand. Now I can’t find this book 1) and would like to know these words. It did break down and give a definition of these words too. Less important to me is 2) if it is so important and disciplined to have the exact number of syllables per line in a haiku, then why do they have these “meaningless” words or syllables? 3) There is a word in Latin for which there is no English translation, but I think it means THIS, THESE intensive. Has anybody written a book on interesting words like this and like the haiku words above? And is GALORE the only adjective in English that comes AFTER what it modifies? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2000, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/2 "2000-09-09T23:15:44Z")
I can tell you this much: There aren’t any meaningless words used to fill out the syllables in haiku, because a haiku doesn’t have any required number of syllables. Many haiku are also srenyu (forgive my spelling), which have the 5-7-5 pattern. A haiku is a brief, terse poem on a natural subject, which is generally assosciated with one of the four seasons. The “terse” part leads me to believe that they would not contain nonsense words. Besides, how much fudging do you really need to do to write a srenyu? Any first-grader can do it. ---
**Author:** ![JBENZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@JBENZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBENZ)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2000, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/3 "2000-09-10T03:29:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\* Besides, how much fudging do you really need to do to write a srenyu? Any first-grader can do it. \*\* Yeah…what he said: “Oh She has curves that men adore so and a tor so even more so.” Somebody run out and find a first grader. “o"o====” ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2000, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/4 "2000-09-10T04:29:31Z")
I’d guess you are talking about words like “nari” and “keri” which usually don’t change the meaning very much, and are very often used in Haiku. > [@](#): > > if it is so important and disciplined to have the exact number of syllables per line in a haiku, then why do they have these “meaningless” words or syllables? I don’t quite understand the question. The “meaningless” words are used _because_ it’s important to have the correct number of syllables. In my opinion the Haiku form works very poorly in English, and I don’t understand why people try to write it in English. Japanese is a syllabic language where all characters are consonant+vowel pairs, with no accented syllables - all syllables have equal weight. Under those conditions, the 5-7-5 and the 5-7-5-7-7 forms have a very pleasent rythm. If you do it in English you have long and short syllables, some syllables which are consonant-vowel-consonant triplets, accented syllables, etc. They ruin the rythm. On the other hand, all the usual devices used in English poetry are useless in Japanese for much the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2000, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/5 "2000-09-10T05:24:46Z")
The reason galore is used after is because it is an Irish word used with irish construction: Main Entry: ga·lore Pronunciation: g&-'lOr, -'lor Function: adjective Etymology: Irish go leor enough Date: 1628 : ABUNDANT, PLENTIFUL – used postpositively \ I am sure the English language has other, similar words, but I can’t think of any right now ---
**Author:** ![Timothy\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Timothy\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timothy_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2000, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/6 "2000-09-10T12:35:51Z")
In heraldry, there’s “a lion rampant”, so there’s another example of a post-fix adjective. I just pulled that out of thin air with about 10 seconds thought, so I’m sure there are lots of other examples. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2000, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/7 "2000-09-10T17:14:43Z")
Re “galore” - in a rather old-fashioned English, you could have cattle a-plenty, or you could know songs a-plenty etc. With regard to the heraldry stuff, as well as rampant, there’s couchant etc. I’m not sure I’d bother with the heraldry bit, though, it being a fairly specialised muddle of English, Old French, Latin and so on. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2000, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/8 "2000-09-10T18:03:27Z")
Almost any adjective can come immediately after the noun it modifies, though it may sound a bit odd or archaic. In this position, they are called postpositive adjectives. See [http://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/adjectiv/postpos.htm](http://www.ucl.ac.uk/internet-grammar/adjectiv/postpos.htm) The reign **glorious** The seige **parlous** Fourteen dollars **Canadian** Thirty-two degrees **Fahrenheit** But there are relatively few adjective that must come after the noun, it is true. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2000, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/9 "2000-09-10T21:13:59Z")
There are nonsense syllables used in English poetry, too. Some are presumably vestigal grammatical forms, such as `a-rowing' and `a-getting.’ Others are sing-song words that just fill in the rhythmic pattern. Shakespeare was fond of, “Hey, nonny, nonny.” **scr4** wrote: > [@](#): > > In my opinion the Haiku form works very poorly in English, and I don’t understand why people try to write it in English. Because it’s an ego boost. It has a reputation for being a very difficult form to work with, and yet almost anybody can churn out a half-decent one. Although people still talk with a straight face about how sophisticated a form it is, writing Haikus is really a form of pseudo-intellectual humor, as exibited by the many `theme’ Haiku threads that pop up on the SDMB. Because of this, I’ve come to think of Haikus as strictly infra dignitas. I tried to start a [Rime Royal](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=19413) thread, but it didn’t take. **don willard** wrote: > [@](#): > > 1. There is a word in Latin for which there is no English translation, but I think it means THIS, THESE intensive. There’s _iste, ista, istud_, which is an intensive pronoun. But I wouldn’t say that it has no translation. For example, I would translate “Winnie Iste Pooh” as “Winnie, that damn Pooh.” ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2000, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiku/32629/10 "2000-09-10T21:53:09Z")
I believe that _manque_ must come after the noun it modifies. Of course, it is of French origin, and often still italicized in print, so I’m not sure if it qualifies as an English word.