# Hail the US troops, change membername in YELLOW RIBBON. Or get banned. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 25, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600 "2004-12-25T18:24:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/441 "2004-12-31T00:53:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As well, **Ald** , you have the opportunity to be schooled by your benefactors in a crucial aspect of American foreign policy: _flexibility_. We are enormously flexible! It is undeniably true that this war was started under false premises of self-protection, to rid the dreaded Saddam of his nuclear-anthrax intercontinental Drones of Death. When these proved to be inconveniently non-existent, we simply altered our history. It’s official now, as **SA** can verify, we are on a mission to extend democracy and freedom to the One Sitting in Darkness, at gunpoint, if need be. Tough love. _Very_ tough love. > > Consider ObL. If he had such gifts, the removal of American forces from Saudi Arabia would present no difficulty, he could merely state, with a straight face copied from The Leader, that his goal was the liberation of American Muslims, that had always been his goal, and his previous statements are inoperative, and no longer exist. > > Flexibility, **Ald**. A great boon to WestCiv, and one which we extend to you in an act of fulsome, armed generosity. It is sad that you persist in being ungrateful. This is the worst argument made in relation to the Iraq war. You guys seem to honestly expect that you can rewrite history. Do you really expect any of us to believe that on Date X there was only _one_ reason behind us going to war with Iraq and that was reason A. And then on Date Y there was another _one_ reason behind us going to war with Iraq and on that date it was reason B? That’s not how it happened. If anyone here actually listened to speeches (the State of the Union being a big one) leading up to the war on Iraq there was a _spectrum_ of issues being mentioned from the _very_ beginning. We talked nuclear, we talked terrorism, we talked chemical, biological, we talked human, we talked illegal conventional weapons, we even talked more mundane issues like Oil for Food scams and et cetera. Before the war started the issue that got the most play was WMDs. The reason for this was we had to prove Saddam still had WMDs to get UN approval, but we never said that our only goal in Iraq was to stop WMD proliferation. Even the UN nations that opposed the Iraq war have from time to time condemned Saddam Hussein’s human right’s violations. But there was a great lie that they could not act because resolutions (violated and being redone in slightly different form every few years) passed previously didn’t implicitly state anything could be done unless WMD were found. So from that perspective it’s obvious why WMD was seen as such a big reason. But everytime you guys try to rewrite history and say that WMD was the first reason then Bush “changed history” and tried to say he was doing it for some other reason you’re engaging in some pretty disgusting hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/442 "2004-12-31T00:56:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Have you ever tried that with Ryan\_Shitfbrain or Bubkus? He hasn’t got the intellect to comprehend what you have said. Dogs can’t talk Gaspode. Keep it that way. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/443 "2004-12-31T00:58:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ain’t enough beer in California to accomplish the task. We’d run out, and end up drinking Coors. That is why the gods gave us Vodka. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/444 "2004-12-31T01:02:56Z")
Precisely what I’m talking about, **Ryan**. And how many countries fell prey to Soviet tanks, walls and machine guns, only to be swallowed up whole and made part of the Soviet Union. On the other hand, none of the countries **elucidator** mentioned have been absorbed into and made part of the United States. And, if I may be so bold, just what is wrong with a desire to promote democracy throughout the world? Has there ever been a democracy overthrown by the free will of its people? Are we, when we think about it, to put a greater value on a country maintaining its culture than upon the wishes of its own people? Is it better to take the position that a harsh, cruel and repressive culture is better and more deserving of existence simply by virtue of its long history, than is a culture which has been modified to suit the will of its people rather than its rulers? Like I said in my post to **elucidator** , I wouldn’t favor invading countries willy-nilly in order to create democracies, but I’d like to know why so many of the people here seem to think it’s wrong and presumptuous of us to want to promote democracy elsewhere in the world and/or to think that it’s better for people to live under a despotic dictator not of their own choosing than in a democracy under which they are ruled by leaders of their own choosing and and who are answerable to them for the actions they take. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/445 "2004-12-31T01:12:45Z")
I’m not so given to believe that our reason for exerting force around the world has anything to do with democracy. A history prof. told us that every war was about money, and that any pretense of being about anything else (religion or other principals) was hogwash. At the time, I thought it was a bit of fluff lecture, but I increasingly think he was dead on. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/446 "2004-12-31T01:24:44Z")
Oh, gee, I had no idea it was such a simple choice. Of course, I prefer democracies, with picket fences and Starbucks franchises, over despotism. Really, that certainly clarifies the issues, obviously I’ve been wrong all along. (Have I got a sign hanging round my neck says “Dumfuk”?) Promoting democracy is one thing, a full scale military invasion is quite another, in the same way a coy flirtation differs from being raped by a freight train! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/447 "2004-12-31T01:40:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > (Have I got a sign hanging round my neck says “Dumfuk”?) Of course not, chumster. I’m speaking of the great many participants on this board who seem to feel we have no right to think that another culture would be better off with a democracy. > [@elucidator](#): > > Promoting democracy is one thing, a full scale military invasion is quite another, in the same way a coy flirtation differs from being raped by a freight train! Yes, I understand this as well. That’s why I specifically said I wouldn’t favor invading a country simply for the purpose of converting it into a democracy. But many posters here (the SDMB in its entirety, that is) seem to think that even the most cruel and repressive culture is more legitimate and desirable simply by virtue of its history and long existence than a democratic one that might replace it. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/448 "2004-12-31T01:47:12Z")
The US doesn’t have any interest in establishing democracies anywhere. They want to lay their hands on foreign capital and establish foreign markets. It’s all about money. It’s ALWAYS about money. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/449 "2004-12-31T01:50:22Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Like I said in my post to **elucidator** , I wouldn’t favor invading countries willy-nilly in order to create democracies, but I’d like to know why so many of the people here seem to think it’s wrong and presumptuous of us to want to promote democracy elsewhere in the world and… You **do** know that Bush’s middle east, near east democracy initiative is down the crapper don’t you? [US retreats from Middle East democracy plan](http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?ID=10330) (December 8, 2004) > [@](#): > > Washington hoped that citizens of autocratic states in the region would no longer stand by obediently while they were forced to obey an unpopular and autocratic regime. While this was an important motive behind the intervention in Iraq, it has now lost support with Washington policymakers in addition to many insiders within the Bush administration. The reason behind this loss of support has been the continuous failure to transform Iraq into a market democracy. While it is still possible to arrest Iraq’s present downward trend, until that moment occurs there will be little support for further test cases of democratic transformation in the Middle East. In order for freight train rape to work, you’ve _got_ to get full penetration. We’ve failed to do that. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/450 "2004-12-31T01:50:51Z")
Loincloth clad **Devilsknew** runs through the thread in all of his 300 lb. glory singing Frankie Goes to Hollywood–“When two tribes go to war…” Shit is getting primitive in here… War, what is it good for…? Say it again! ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/451 "2004-12-31T01:52:47Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > He hasn’t got the intellect to comprehend what you have said. > > Dogs can’t talk Gaspode. Keep it that way. That’s the amazing thing about Gaspode, the Wonder Dog. He can talk. The thing is, **SA** , you can’t force people into democarcy, strange as it may seem. It must come from its own volition. I know people in Spain who still think things were better druing the Franco years. Less crime, everyone had a job, things were a lot cheaper. Of course, crime rates never showed up, because _Guardia Civil_ shot criminals without due process and tossed the bodies on the city dump. But it doesn’t matter that you tell that to people, they still long for the good old days. And there is a significant minority in Russia who long for the communist days. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water… ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/452 "2004-12-31T01:55:30Z")
I love the term “market democracy.” It’s classic Orwell doublespeak. Marketocracy is what they hoped for. They were already bragging about denying France and Germany access to Iraqi markets. Our war, our profit. Anyone who thinks this was about establishing democracy is a fucking rube. Conversations in that vein are a waste of fucking time, like discussing whether or not the dogs were really talking to Son of Sam. Why bother discussing the merits of your self-serving delusions? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/453 "2004-12-31T02:45:29Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s the amazing thing about Gaspode, the Wonder Dog. He can talk. And as I keep saying, Dogs, don’t talk. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/454 "2004-12-31T02:50:42Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And as I keep saying, Dogs, don’t talk. It just never ends… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/455 "2004-12-31T02:55:59Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > The thing is, **SA** , you can’t force people into democarcy, strange as it may seem. > > \ > > And there is a significant minority in Russia who long for the communist days. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water… Yes, I do understand that, **Gaspode**. (I’ve been referring to you as “Gaspode” rather the “The Gaspode” as I read once that you wanted to change your name so as to drop the “The” … so to speak. 🙂 But at any rate, this is why I said that Iraq will have the _opportunity_ for a democracy, rather than stating simply that it _will_ have a democracy. I know that democracies must run of their own volition – but of course without the opportunity for a democracy many peoples have no recourse but to live under dictatorial governments, and it’s this opportunity that I value in the case of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/456 "2004-12-31T03:16:38Z")
But that’s even _weaker_, **SA**. You’re saying we went through all this shit not even to establish a democracy, but merely to allow for the _opportunity_? And if it doesn’t happen, we just say “Ooopsy! My bad!”? It doesn’t strike you that the risk and investment require that the prospects for success be just about 100%. Can we go around saying “We’re going to invade your country and remove its governance, because your chances to achieve democracy (as we define it) exceeds 50%. Congratulations! Please extend our heartfelt condolences to collateral damagees. Duck.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/457 "2004-12-31T03:31:44Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Vaya con dios_ **a** _\* of your choice, **RedFury**! > > (\*My edit) My godess is 'bout 5’6"/9", 34/28/34, over twenty and a bisexual nympho mute, who loves to clean and cook in what little free time she has left from her other activities. Still looking but I’d be willing to worship at that altar _anytime_. Hey now! I know what you’re thinking, but hope’s last thing to go. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/458 "2004-12-31T03:35:27Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > **FuriaRoja** , hermano mio … > I know how you detest anything remotely Republican, but still… > > I don’t agree with most of the things **SA** , writes, but I do think he’s trying to bridge a gap, or at east establish something remotely like a meaningfull dialogue. I think his effort is sincere. Hola, **Gaspode** , how’s your boxer doing? I seem to recall we got our pups at about the same time. If yours turned out anything like my Silky, you’re one lucky guy. She’s nestled on the side of my chair as I type – velcro has nothing on her. Then again, wasn’t it Seneca – the Spanish-born one – that said _the more I know humans, the more I love my dog_? So perhaps it has nothing to do with luck and everything to do with _us_. Anyway, would that I could see **SA** under the same light as you do, 'cuase from where I’m sitting best I glean is a guy who extends his hand out in order to _pull_ you over into Fantasyland. Sure, he’s fairly polite and puts forth long scrolls, so in that sense I suppose you can give him an A for effort…but content? Please, my friend, reality check, he’s as brainwashed as as any other Bushbot on this board or elsewhere. Exhibit A: read his current exchange with **elucidator** in this very thread. Not sure whether to laugh or cry when I read same. So I yawn instead. Exhibits B-Infinity: Any other political discussion he’s been involved in since joining this board. Specifically w/regards to the whole Iraq clusterfuck, he’s not budged an inch – if anything, counter to the deluge of facts he’s been bombarded with, he keeps hardening his delussional stance. Much like his Supreme Miseader I might add. > [@](#): > > There are other conservative posters here deserving your mockery, save it for them. With people like **Starving Artist** , it’s possible to debate. Have you ever tried that with **Ryan\_Shitfbrain** or **Bubkus**? As I’ve said repeatedly as of late, no can or will do. And that’s to keep engaging in throughly futile exchanges with fans of this Administration. Now, if you can show me one post and I do mean _one_, where **SA** – or **Bricker** , or **Shodan** , or **Scylla** , or **Sam Stone** to name a few other talky, fairly polite Bushbots, with over room temperature IQs – where any of the aforementioned concedes the blidingly obvious fact that this whole Iraq enterprise is nothing but a neocon wetdream – and a murderous one at that – I’ll reconsider my position and rejoin the debate. And the chances are? Somewhere between slim and none, 'cuase as you well know we’ve been at this for almost _three fuckin’ years now_. It’s godammed boring, repetitive and frustating to the nth degree. Much like the saying goes, my head hurts when I bang it into a wall, I’ve found it best to simply stop doing it. All the “I told you sos” in the world don’t cut it either, for there’s is no satisfaction in seeing reality unfold just as painfully as most of the world predicted it would. So what’s left? Life’s simple pleasures. And the eternal quest for mute bisexual nympho godesess and/or a World Cup for **La Furia Roja** – whichever comes first. And I have an inkling the odds on the MBNG are much better. 😉 Other than that, let them keep pounding sand. My money’s safely on the sand – it’ll drink as much blood as they have to give. And then some. Here’s hoping and wishing the New Year will be much better than the one we’re about to leave behind. Don’t think that’s asking for much. Un abrazo, ~Red ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/459 "2004-12-31T03:38:46Z")
**Starving Artist** : > [@](#): > > Of course not, chumster. I’m speaking of the great many participants on this board who seem to feel we have no right to think that another culture would be better off with a democracy. I have a question for you. You appear to think that at least one of the reasons why Iraq was invaded was to bring democracy. You seem to think this is okay. Let’s just assume that this is true. Based on that, you then would have no problem with, say Spain (who recently took steps to recognize homosexual marriage) making allegiances with folks in the blue states to invade Jesusland to bring “equality and freedom” to those down-trodden homosexuals (who were recently reduced to second-class citizens in some states), would you? You wouldn’t pick up arms (or even a dull butter knife) to repel the invading forces, would you? After all, they, _and even a few of your own countrymen_, are coming to bring you freedom! And equality! For anyone to say they would be opposed to such a noble mission sure would tell me lot about the “American” mindset, particularly, those in the middle red states. But I’m sure someone as noble as yourself would be on the side of right and help with the invasion, no? And **RedFury** : > [@](#): > > About as good and satisfying an answer as the Bushbots deserve. We were given a choice by their Fearless Misleader and I’ve done just that: I am categorically against Him and them. Done wasting time trying to get the sorry lot back into the reality-based community through logic and common sense. > So fuck 'em all. Though the task of diminishing such a mountain of stupidity may be arduous, a task comparable to moving the Himalayas to the East 100 KM with the aid of nothing more than a teaspoon, I implore you to not take such an approach. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/460 "2004-12-31T03:41:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But that’s even _weaker_, **SA**. You’re saying we went through all this shit not even to establish a democracy, but merely to allow for the _opportunity_?" **luci, luci, luci** …you are driving me crazy! What is wrong with you, my boy? How can I make clear, in some way that I apparently haven’t been able to do up to now even though I’ve tried, that we didn’t go into Iraq for the sole or even primary purpose of ensuring democracy there, nor would I have ever favored going there for the sole purpose of establishing or trying to establish a democracy there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600.md?page=24)