# Hail the US troops, change membername in YELLOW RIBBON. Or get banned.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 25, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600 "2004-12-25T18:24:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/161 "2004-12-27T00:27:43Z")
Well, of course, but he didn’t do that. He just called her “she” throughout the whole thing. Very impersonal IMO.
YMMV.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/162 "2004-12-27T00:29:54Z")
So if I was talking about my mother and didn’t refer to her as MommaFinn, instead using the pronoun ‘she’, would you have a problem with it?
I mean, honestly, are you finding fault in a non-native english speaker’s use of pronouns?
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### Author:  [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/163 "2004-12-27T00:36:41Z")
_sigh_ No, not at all. But from the first reference he never said, “my nanny died”. Not at all, nothing to indicate how he had ever known this woman in life. I would assume that, if you were talking about your mother, you would let us know you were talking about your mother in the first couple of sentences? I had to wade through most of the thread before I realized Alde _wasn’t_ talking about his mother, daughter, wife, or even dog, and I think much of the impact was lost by people trying to piece together why he was mourning this person. It’s needless.
Anyway, the point remains that he got warned in GD and rushed to–reflect? apologize? explain he was just misunderstood?–nope; to Pit the warning itself.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/164 "2004-12-27T00:58:16Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#):
>
> Anyway, the point remains that he got warned in GD and rushed to–reflect? apologize? explain he was just misunderstood?–nope; to Pit the warning itself.
Meh.
Although I, myself, do not agree totaly with the tack that he took, namely, that we expect everybody to support the troops and wear a yellow ribbon, the first few pages of this thread were a discussion on the double standard inherent in his warning, and that, I think, was quite valid.
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### Author:  [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/165 "2004-12-27T01:21:01Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> Nope, you can’t get out of it that easily.
> The UN edict was not handed down by God. It’s not like containment and sanctions can’t be questioned.
It wasn’t an ‘UN edict’ it was a treaty that Sadaam agreed to.
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> The answer, I believe, is a combination of factors, and yes, it was a clusterfuck.
>
> The direct forseeable consequence to leaving Sadaam in power after Gulf War I was that more people would die under his regime.
>
> Then we introduced sanctions which we knew would end up harming the entire country.
> Sadaam then diverted money from the oil for food program, but the UN also ran a corrupt program.
> Etc…
>
> So, yes, to the extent that Sadaam diverted money earmarked for food, he killed people. But he wasn’t the one who imposed the sanctions.
He might not have imposed the sanctions but they were a direct result of him failing to fufil obligations he agreed to. He is responsible for every death that stemmed from his decision to break a treaty he agreed to.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/166 "2004-12-27T01:25:07Z")
> [@treis](#):
>
> It wasn’t an ‘UN edict’ it was a treaty that Sadaam agreed to.
Incorrect.
[url=http://i-p-o.org/un-sanctions-iraq.htm] The most basic right, the right to life, is being denied in fact to 18 million people by the continuation of the sanctions policy, implemented through the United Nations Security Council.
[/quote]
> [@treis](#):
>
> He might not have imposed the sanctions but they were a direct result of him failing to fufil obligations he agreed to. He is responsible for every death that stemmed from his decision to break a treaty he agreed to.
So, the sanctions themselves were given to us by God and thus anything that happens after that is someone else’s fault?
Could it be that maybe, just maybe, we shouldn’t have left a brutal dictator in power while starving his people?
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/167 "2004-12-27T01:26:27Z")
Damnit!!!
Coding. ~grumbles~
[The most basic right, the right to life, is being denied in fact to 18 million people by the continuation of the sanctions policy, implemented through the United Nations Security Council.](http://i-p-o.org/un-sanctions-iraq.htm)
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/168 "2004-12-27T01:32:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#):
>
> **Aldebaran** does not agree with the American worldview. You all know that. How is it, then, that every time he then proceeds to post something disagreeing with the American worldview, fourteen people jump on top of him?
How? Take a look at [his first post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5620802&postcount=53) in the thread in question.
> [@](#):
>
> Great. Again an other thread by someone who thinks the USA owns the Middle East.
Now compare that to that thread’s title & OP:
> [@](#):
>
> **Should We (USA) Attack Syria?**
>
> This news article indicates that this is likely in the near future, and for good reason.
You really don’t see anything wrong with what **Aldebaran** posted?
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/169 "2004-12-27T01:34:09Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> How? Take a look at [his first post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5620802&postcount=53) in the thread in question.Now compare that to that thread’s title & OP:You really don’t see anything wrong with what **Aldebaran** posted?
When looked at from the perspective of someone for whom English is not a first language, I can see where he thought the OP was seriously asking something along the lines of “Okay…so Syria next, right?” rather than “Do you think it’s a good idea for the US to attack Syria next?”
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/170 "2004-12-27T01:42:43Z")
That’s only part of it. I don’t see anything about the US owning the Middle East except in **Aldebaran** ’s post. Outrageous hyperbole is **Alde** ’s SOP.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/171 "2004-12-27T02:08:25Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> That’s only part of it. I don’t see anything about the US owning the Middle East except in **Aldebaran** ’s post. Outrageous hyperbole is **Alde** ’s SOP.
Claiming that we have the right to execute ‘regime changes’ at will does indeed claim that we have ownership over other nations.
They aint called sovereign for nuthin’
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/172 "2004-12-27T02:13:31Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#):
>
> That’s only part of it. I don’t see anything about the US owning the Middle East except in **Aldebaran** ’s post. Outrageous hyperbole is **Alde** ’s SOP.
The idea that we can just waltz in and pull a regime change whenever we feel like it _presupposes_ that we own the place. If Canadian Dopers started going on about how it’s time to invade the US and remove the despot Bush to free the poor Americans, I think at least half of us would feel the same way.
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### Author:  [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/173 "2004-12-27T02:22:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> Incorrect.
Whats incorrect?
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> [url=http://i-p-o.org/un-sanctions-iraq.htm] The most basic right, the right to life, is being denied in fact to 18 million people by the continuation of the sanctions policy, implemented through the United Nations Security Council.
Exactly and the reason for these sanctions is Saddam’s failure to live up to his obligations.
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> So, the sanctions themselves were given to us by God and thus anything that happens after that is someone else’s fault?
God? why are you bringing God into this? If I go and rob a bank its not the states fault that I go to jail.
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> Could it be that maybe, just maybe, we shouldn’t have left a brutal dictator in power while starving his people?
Maybe we shouldn’t have but that doesn’t change the fact that Saddam is responsible for millions of deaths.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/174 "2004-12-27T02:30:11Z")
> [@treis](#):
>
> Whats incorrect?
The sanctions were imposed by the UN, not a treaty.
> [@treis](#):
>
> God? why are you bringing God into this?
Because you seem to be making the argument that the sanctions themselves are somehow beyond reproach (ie. divine). The way I see it, the whole situation was a clusterfuck. The way you see it, everything but Sadaam’s actions are fine.
> [@treis](#):
>
> Maybe we shouldn’t have but that doesn’t change the fact that Saddam is responsible for millions of deaths.
Yes, it **does** change that fact. At least it means that Sadaam was not solely responsible for those deaths.
If you are a homicidal maniac, and you hold a nation of millions in the palm of your hand, and I know that you’ll abuse them if given leeway…
Well then, if I leave you in power and do something to hurt your nation while not removing you from power, whose dumb idea was that?
You were, after all, talking about easily forseen consequences and blame.
Doesn’t it occur to you that Sadaam’s actions were predictable and that someone should’ve thought the whole thing through a little bit better?
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### Author:  [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/175 "2004-12-27T02:40:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> Yes, it **does** change that fact. At least it means that Sadaam was not solely responsible for those deaths.
>
> If you are a homicidal maniac, and you hold a nation of millions in the palm of your hand, and I know that you’ll abuse them if given leeway…
> Well then, if I leave you in power and do something to hurt your nation while not removing you from power, whose dumb idea was that?
>
> You were, after all, talking about easily forseen consequences and blame.
> Doesn’t it occur to you that Sadaam’s actions were predictable and that someone should’ve thought the whole thing through a little bit better?
So Saddam isn’t responsible for his actions becuase we could have removed him?
Please it was Saddam’s sole choice to break the treaty he signed, ignore demands from the U.N., value his WMDs over the lives of his people and horde money for his personal use instead of buying food for his people. He is responsible for all the deaths, no one else.
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/176 "2004-12-27T02:41:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Nobody else noticed this?
> It’s late in December, so this will probably be the last time I say this in 2004: that’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard all year. (And it’s an election year!) But it’s likely the Big Winner. PLEASE tell me you’re kidding. Violating the UN no-fly zones was an attack on the USA? There are no words. You’ve given me a headache.
Shooting at American pilots IS an attack on the USA. How could it be otherwise?
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### Author:  [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/177 "2004-12-27T02:47:20Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#):
>
> **Ryan** Shut the fuck up, already.
>
> **Al** - violence begets violence. No matter how upset you are, resorting to violence, in real life or virtually on a message board, will not make things better.
> I thought you were a pin in the ass when you joined, but you have certainly changed over the time here. Don’t devolve to what you were when first joining. Chill and take a break.
I agree. FTR I can understand the position of the insurgents attacking **soldiers** , but why do they try to annihilate roadbuilders, doctors, engineers, and teachers? If all sides would agree not to harm noncombatants (and I am willing to admit that our side is guilty of that, too), it would be a good first step toward getting out of this mess within our lifetimes.
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### Author:  [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/178 "2004-12-27T02:48:36Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#):
>
> **Zombiesatemybrain** , sorry you feel that way. Yep, I’ve been pitted so many times I can’t count the threads–oh, hey, wait a minute, I’ve been pitted–lessee–once. And who did it?
And didn’t you ask for it, with your continual sicko obsession with Aldebaran and your constant demand for personal details from him? If you dislike him so much, why bother to even read his posts?
You seem to be conducting a personal campaign against him which is beyond my comprehension. Why?? He has as much right to be a member here and voice his opinions as you have. YMMV, of course.
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/179 "2004-12-27T02:48:55Z")
> [@treis](#):
>
> > [@Finnagain](#):
> >
> > Yes, it does change that fact. At least it means that Sadaam was **not solely responsible for those deaths.**
>
> So Saddam isn’t responsible for his actions becuase we could have removed him?
No.
So Sadaam isn’t **solely** responsible for the **deaths**.
Of course he’s responsible for his actions.
Yeesh.
> [@treis](#):
>
> Please it was Saddam’s sole choice to break the treaty he signed,
Yes, and then it was the UN’s choice to devestate his nation for the sins of its leader.
> [@treis](#):
>
> value his WMDs over the lives of his people
Um, which WMD’s? Remember, there weren’t any?
> [@treis](#):
>
> and horde money for his personal use instead of buying food for his people. He is responsible for all the deaths, no one else.
As I already said,
> [@](#):
>
> So, yes, to the extent that Sadaam diverted money earmarked for food, he killed people.
Come on.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hail-the-us-troops-change-membername-in-yellow-ribbon-or-get-banned/281600/180 "2004-12-27T03:24:21Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#):
>
> I agree. FTR I can understand the position of the insurgents attacking **soldiers** , but why do they try to annihilate roadbuilders, doctors, engineers, and teachers?
Look up “economic warfare.” The strategy makes perfect sense from the perspective of denying their enemies the ability to build an economically viable state. The continuing lack of gasoline and electricity in Baghdad is draining confidence in the Allawi government.
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