# Haiti: Was this a U.S. backed coup d'etat? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916 "2004-03-01T15:43:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/1 "2004-03-01T15:43:21Z")
Contrary to the news reports citing that Haitian President Aristede resigned, I’ve have heard statements from members of congress that are close to him that this is not the case. Maxine Waters had a discussion with him today where she says that he said that he and his wife were kidnapped by american forces and forced to leave the country. She also says that he said that he did not resign from office but was forced to leave the country. If this is true then it looks as if the U.S. government has backed the overthrow of a democratically elected leader. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Sine\_Nomen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d26b3c/32.png) [@Sine\_Nomen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sine_Nomen)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/2 "2004-03-01T16:02:19Z")
I think some verification is in order. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/3 "2004-03-01T16:05:31Z")
It’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/4 "2004-03-01T16:22:01Z")
We’ve had some discussion of this idea in a concurrent GD thread, “Haiti: Now what?” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=239496](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=239496) ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/5 "2004-03-01T16:53:41Z")
> [@Sine Nomen](#): > > I think some verification is in order. Cite? Here is a link to Democracy Now, the show that broke this story and had Maxine Waters and Randall Robinson on live and they both spoke to Aristede directly and were both told the same thing by Aristede. [http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/01/1521216](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/01/1521216) There should be a transcript of the show up later today according to the site. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/6 "2004-03-01T17:03:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not true. A US congress woman has spoken with him directly this morning and says that it is true. She says that he said he was kidnapped and that he did not resign. Check the link to the site that I posted, there should be a transcript and audio there later today, according to the site. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Saul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58f4c7/32.png) [@Roland\_Saul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Saul)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/7 "2004-03-01T18:02:53Z")
Haiti is a testing ground for Venezuela IMO. Simple plan really, demonize another democratically elected leader. First by crushing the economy through covert fiscal insurgency, then by blaming the failure of the economy and social infrastructure squarely on the shoulders of the target, curiously something that Americans seem willing to do to anyone but their own leadership. Then send in the Marines to “restore order” by installing another dictatorship which is paid for and will certainly be more obedient to U.S. interests… Duvalier was backed by the U.S., Aristide was not. Now many of Duvalier’s former assassins and torturers are returning. The citizens who erected cheap barricades in a last ditch effort to stop the new TonTons from physically moving into town have been (as usual) portrayed by the American media as being “gangs of roving thugs crushing any opposition” … Easy to see through this, the only people with any real firepower or financial backing are Washington’s new gang of hired killers. Way to crush another democracy. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Saul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58f4c7/32.png) [@Roland\_Saul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Saul)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/8 "2004-03-01T18:08:26Z")
P.S. Are we to quick to forget the last “resignation” of a democratically elected president as was INSTANTLY reported in the case of Hugo Chavez Frias after that particular U.S.-sponsored coup moved into the revisionist phase? Is there anybody left that actually believes the tripe coming down the pipe from C.N.N and Faux these days?? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/9 "2004-03-01T19:34:42Z")
On the credibility scale, I think that this ranks slightly above the Peak Oil kill off of 5.5 billion. Maybe around the Kennedy shooting conspiricy. At least I was unimpressed by the ‘cite’ as far as proof goes. Off the top of my head, and with the VERY limited ‘cite’ given so far (and from SUCH a credible source, doncha know?) I’d say my first major problem is: If the US is orcestrating all this, why did they allow Aristede to phone anyone, especially a member of Congress? He’s supposedly in our power, no?? Why didn’t he have a convinent ‘accident’ (since the Bush administration is so evil after all) or at least be kept secure and out of communications?? How is it that a member of Congress is completely unaware of all this happening and has to take Aristede’s word for the story (Unless you are saying Bush kept all this from Congress as well)? Why would the US WANT another dictatorship in Haiti or anywhere else?? As to Roland Saul’s screed about the US crushing another democracy…well, the least said about that the better. Unless you’d like to back some of those outrageous statements up with some cites (from some credible sources)? Where is the proof that the US is behind whats happening in Haiti? Where is the proof that this is simply a step towards doing the same thing in Venezuela? Hell, where is the proof that the marines have been sent in to restore order for that matter? -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/10 "2004-03-01T20:05:35Z")
According to CNN, after Aristide’s resignation was announced he was quickly flown out of the country – destination uknown, but rumor has it he’s headed for South Africa. In any case, some place outside both Haitian and U.S. jurisdiction. If Aristide does not have an “accident,” then as soon as he lands safely he will be in a position to tell his side of the story to an eagerly listening world. If he did not actually resign of his own free will, he will tell us so. If he was kidnapped, he will tell us so. If this was a “U.S. backed coup d’etat” and Aristide has any reason to know it, he will tell us so. Let’s wait and see what he says. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/11 "2004-03-01T20:16:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > On the credibility scale, I think that this ranks slightly above the Peak Oil kill off of 5.5 billion. Maybe around the Kennedy shooting conspiricy. At least I was unimpressed by the ‘cite’ as far as proof goes. > > Off the top of my head, and with the VERY limited ‘cite’ given so far (and from SUCH a credible source, doncha know?) I’d say my first major problem is: If the US is orcestrating all this, why did they allow Aristede to phone anyone, especially a member of Congress? He’s supposedly in our power, no?? Why didn’t he have a convinent ‘accident’ (since the Bush administration is so evil after all) or at least be kept secure and out of communications?? How is it that a member of Congress is completely unaware of all this happening and has to take Aristede’s word for the story (Unless you are saying Bush kept all this from Congress as well)? Why would the US WANT another dictatorship in Haiti or anywhere else?? > > -XT Because you haven’t heard Maxine Waters make her statement doesn’t mean it she didn’t make the statements and doesn’t mean that Aristede didn’t make these statements. Why would she lie about a conversation that she had with Aristede? Why would Randall Robinson echo the same lie? She’s reporting on what Aristede said to her in a telephone conversation, not something someone told her. I personally heard her and Randall Robinson, they both spoke to Aristede at different times this morning and both same that he maintains that he didn’t resign and was taking out of the country against his free will by U.S. marines. > [@xtisme](#): > > As to Roland Saul’s screed about the US crushing another democracy…well, the least said about that the better. Unless you’d like to back some of those outrageous statements up with some cites (from some credible sources)? Where is the proof that the US is behind whats happening in Haiti? Where is the proof that this is simply a step towards doing the same thing in Venezuela? Hell, where is the proof that the marines have been sent in to restore order for that matter? > -XT You need only look at the Venezuela situation to see what is credible. Look at all of the false information that was put out about that situation, why is it such a stretch to consider a similiar thing has taken place in Haiti? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/12 "2004-03-01T20:17:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let’s wait and see what he says. Sounds sensable to me but…naw, lets just rant and rave instead at the US for another attack on democracy!! Thats much more interesting. 🙂 We don’t need no stinking facts to cloud things up guys!! -XT ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/13 "2004-03-01T20:21:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > According to CNN, after Aristide’s resignation was announced he was quickly flown out of the country – destination uknown, but rumor has it he’s headed for South Africa. In any case, some place outside both Haitian and U.S. jurisdiction. > > If Aristide does not have an “accident,” then as soon as he lands safely he will be in a position to tell his side of the story to an eagerly listening world. If he did not actually resign of his own free will, he will tell us so. If he was kidnapped, he will tell us so. If this was a “U.S. backed coup d’etat” and Aristide has any reason to know it, he will tell us so. Let’s wait and see what he says. It looks like he’s not free to tell his side of the story according to Randall Robinson: > [@](#): > > The president called me on a cell phone that was slipped to him by someone - he has no land line out to the world and no number at which he can be reached. He is being held in a room with his wife and his sister’s husband, who happened to be at the house at the time that the abduction occurred. The soldiers came in to the house and ordered them to use no phones and to come immediately. They were taken at gunpoint to the airport and put on a plane. His own security detachment was taken as well and they were put in a separate compartment of the plane. The president was kept with his wife with the soldiers with the shades of the plane down and when he asked where he was being taken, the soldiers told him they were under orders not to tell him that. He was flown first to Antigua, which he recognized, but then he was told to put the shades down again. They were on the ground like this for two hours before they took off again and landed six hours later at another location again told to keep the shades down. At no time before they left the house and on the plane were they allowed to use a phone. Only when they landed the last time were they told that they were in the central African republic. Then taken to a room with a balcony. They do not know what the room is. Outside they say they are surrounded by soldiers. So that they have no freedom. The president asked me to tell the world that it is a coup, that they have been kidnapped. That they have been abducted. I have put in calls to members of congress asking that they demand that the president be given an opportunity to speak, that he be given a press conference opportunity and that people be given an opportunity to reach him by phone so that they can hear directly from him how he is being treated. But the essential point is clear. He did not resign. He was taken by force from his residence in the middle of the night, forced on to a plane, and taken away without being told where he was going. He was kidnapped. There’s no question about it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/14 "2004-03-01T20:34:41Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Why would she lie about a conversation that she had with Aristede? Why would Randall Robinson echo the same lie? And in the CNN article, the administration denies it. Why would THEY lie?? :rolleyes: You are judging the truth based on basically nothing, and assuming that of course the Administration ALWAYS lies, and that Aristede is telling the truth. Why? Just because you like him or something? Why WOULDN’T he lie? Maybe he has his reasons? How do you know he’s not lieing? Or that he’s not spinning the story so that it plays the way HE wants it too (sympathy vote). Or maybe that the story is simply garbled atm? > [@EasyPhil](#): > > You need only look at the Venezuela situation to see what is credible. Look at all of the false information that was put out about that situation, why is it such a stretch to consider a similiar thing has taken place in Haiti? Because I see no CREDIBLE motivation for the US to be involving itself in either case at that level. You have some, then bring it out and convince me. So far all I’ve seen is dark mumblings about conspiricies and half formed and half baked theories that the US wants to remove good and benevolent democracies and replace them with harsh dictatorships to increase our profits or whatever. Sorry, but I’m not a conspiricy kind of guy. If you have some hard evidence that the US is in fact involved that deeply that we are calling the shots and dictating the actions of rebels or what have you, then bring it out and lets look at it rationally. From what I’ve seen so far it seems the extent the US is doing anything is basically getting Aristide out of there before there is a blood bath…sort of what we did with Marcos in the PI. At this point, with the rebels in the capital, its a fait acompli (prolly spelled that wrong), no? This seems a reasonable course of action, unless the US is willing to use its military to keep Aristide in power, something we aren’t willing to do. And if we DID, you can believe the screams and cries of anguish and rage at the administration would be loud and long in the US. So, its a damned if they do, damned if they don’t scenerio from what I can see. Anything deeper or darker will have to be proved from my perspective. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/15 "2004-03-01T21:34:14Z")
I guess I’m in the “give me a motive” camp. As far as I know, the US has no dog in this fight, except a desire for enough stability so that flotillas of refugees don’t start washing up on Florida beaches. Haiti doesn’t have much in the way of natural resources; it’s not particularly strategic; and we sure don’t need to be committing more troops to some third-world disaster area. So unless we assume that the US likes to overthrow friendly neighboring democracies just as sort of a hobby, I’d be hard-pressed to think of a reason why we’d want to orchestrate a coup. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/16 "2004-03-01T22:40:42Z")
The president’s [press secretary settled all this](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/03/20040301-4.html) this afternoon: > [@](#): > > Q Thank you. Can you describe what the United States knows about the conditions under which President Aristide left Haiti? Do we know, did he leave of his own? Was he forcibly – > > MR. McCLELLAN: No, that’s nonsense. I would just say – I’ve seen some of the reports. Conspiracy theories do nothing to help the Haitian people move forward to a better, more free and more prosperous future. Mr. Aristide said in his statement – it was a little bit more than this, but he said, “Tonight I’m resigning in order to avoid a bloodbath. I accept to leave with the hope that there will be life, and not death.” It’s a conspiracy theory, so there’s no point in even wondering why Mr. Aristide is reported to gave said he was kidnapped. Any public speculation will now do nothing but reduce the credibility of the wonderers, and who’d want to do that to themselves!? ---
**Author:** ![far\_born](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@far\_born](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/far_born)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/17 "2004-03-01T23:03:42Z")
Some people are tossing around “conspiracy theory” like it meant “bigfoot sighting”. Conspiracies do exist, you know. Calling something a “conspiracy theory” has no relation to it’s likelihood of it being true. What we have from two US Congressman are a set of allegations. They have not been proven yet and we may see if they can be. But it is not time to believe or disbelieve yet. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/18 "2004-03-01T23:28:14Z")
I cannot believe even the Bush Administration would be stupid enough to engineer a coup in which its complicity would be so hard to keep under wraps. Journalists the world over will be clamoring to talk to Aristide to get the Straight Dope – would have been clamoring, even if no hint of a “U.S. backed coup” had ever leaked. If Aristide dies soon under mysterious (or any) circumstances, the speculations will never die down. If he goes on living in the Central African Republic in “seclusion,” without making any public statements – same results. If he talks, he reveals whatever there is to reveal. The Bush team must have seen all this in advance. So either this conspiracy theory is not true, or it was the most incredibly stupid plan undertaken since Bush took office. I incline towards the former; Bush **does** have some advisors with three-digit IQs. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/19 "2004-03-01T23:49:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I cannot believe even the Bush Administration would be stupid enough to engineer a coup in which its complicity would be so hard to keep under wraps. Journalists the world over will be clamoring to talk to Aristide to get the Straight Dope – would have been clamoring, even if no hint of a “U.S. backed coup” had ever leaked. If Aristide dies soon under mysterious (or any) circumstances, the speculations will never die down. If he goes on living in the Central African Republic in “seclusion,” without making any public statements – same results. If he talks, he reveals whatever there is to reveal. The Bush team must have seen all this in advance. So either this conspiracy theory is not true, or it was the most incredibly stupid plan undertaken since Bush took office. I incline towards the former; Bush **does** have some advisors with three-digit IQs. Why would their plan be stupid? They invaded Iraq using lies and deception as the basis for the action and there were no repercussions, not from the U.N. not from anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916/20 "2004-03-01T23:52:21Z")
that if Aristide went of his own accord he would have plastered his face all over the TV and the newspapers. If to say nothing else but, look at me, I’m a martyr. But there was nothing. He was just suddenly gone. Smells funny. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haiti-was-this-a-u-s-backed-coup-detat/231916.md?page=2)