# Haitians "deal with the devil" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940 "2010-01-14T15:59:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/21 "2010-01-14T18:08:41Z")
The link above is the first mention I’ve seen of the ceremony supposedly giving whatever deity a 200-year lease on the island. Btw, I’ve heard the “pact with the Devil” before from missionaries to Haiti. Factual question- not Catholic-bashing- to what extent has the Catholic Church in Haiti accomodated Voudun(sp?)? ---
**Author:** ![MatthewGerlach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@MatthewGerlach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MatthewGerlach)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/22 "2010-01-14T18:12:43Z")
I have many times heard that in Haiti and Tanzania albinos are killed so their bodyparts can be sold by witchdoctors. In Jamaica, albinos are cursed. This is some really evil, crazed voodoo. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/23 "2010-01-14T18:31:39Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Well just because a cite says voodoo has no devil calling in it does not mean it is true. Voodooo does not involve belief or worship of the devil (and your comparisons to the Nazis are inane), but be be that as it may, it’s still no less rational to say tha God is punishing haitians for practicing voodoo than to say he’s doing it for making a pact with Satan 200 years ago. It’s irrational to say that God did it for _any_ reason or to attribute any supernatural causes for it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/24 "2010-01-14T18:32:52Z")
> [@Joe Frickin Friday](#): > > You might find [this](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1573) informative. I’ve heard that legend of Bois Caiman, too. However, I disagree with the Wiccan writing the article. While Erzulie is most comonly regarded by outsiders as love and motherhood goddess, she is _also_ the spirit of revenge and luck. Which would be entirely appropriate for a slave rebellion. I’ve also had this legend related to me by two voodoo clergy and an PhD anthropologist who is a specialist in Haitian culture and religion. All three - none of whom knew one another - told me the _loa_ involved was Erzulie. All forms of this tale I have heard have specified a black pig as sacrifice, which is a favored animal of Erzulie. Ogun prefers black _dogs_. These items, and some of my own research, leads me to suspect that such a ceremony did take place and the _loa_ invoked was indeed a Petra form of Erzulie. And I have no doubt either that a Christian such as Robertson would regard Erzulie as the devil. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/25 "2010-01-14T18:33:41Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Are you there, Ardra? It’s us, Haiti. :: Golf clap :: > **[Devil's Due (Star Trek: The Next Generation)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Due_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation))** > > "Devil's Due" is the 13th episode of the fourth season of the American science fiction television series Star Trek: The Next Generation, originally aired on February 4, 1991, in broadcast syndication in the United States. Based on an episode written by William Douglas Lansford for the planned Star Trek: Phase II (1978) television series, it was adapted for The Next Generation by Philip Lazebnik and directed by Tom Benko. > Set in the 24th century, the series follows the adventures of the Starfl... ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/26 "2010-01-14T18:37:00Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Basically, there’s a legend that, in 1791, a guy named Boukman Dutty, who might have been a houngan and might not have been (there’s a debate whether he was Catholic or Voudon) In Haiti, being Catholic and being Voudoun are not mutually exclusive, much to the chagrin of the Roman church. I’m talking about actual practices here, where people attend the ceremonies and participate in BOTH religions, not about doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/27 "2010-01-14T18:43:45Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In Haiti, being Catholic and being Voudoun are not mutually exclusive, much to the chagrin of the Roman church. I’m talking about actual practices here, where people attend the ceremonies and participate in BOTH religions, not about doctrine. I know, but there’s some question as to whether or not Bookman was himself Voudoun. Some later accounts say he was, but those are by Voudon practitioners claiming him, and there’s some question as to what he himself actually believed, whether he was Voudon, whether he was Catholic, whether he was Muslim, or some mix of these. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/28 "2010-01-14T18:46:44Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > those dolls they stick pins in Those come from horror movies, not from actual Vodou practice (and the sympathetic-magic idea behind them predates Vodou). Horror movies are probably about as reliable a guide to Vodou beliefs and practices as they are to Christian ones. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/29 "2010-01-14T18:48:31Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > :: Golf clap :: > > [Devil's Due (Star Trek: The Next Generation) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Due_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)) 🙂 Can you tell my knowledge of Star Trek is newfound? I love being able to reference stuff like that and smile when I recognize a Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra ref. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/30 "2010-01-14T18:51:04Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Well just because a cite says voodoo has no devil calling in it does not mean it is true. There are plenty of writings as well that the communists and nazis are nice folks too and just doing good, as well as the kkk, there would be plenty of such material around to cite. > > Maybe ALL voodoo is not evil, I can agree to that. But I have seen 18th century idols and stuff, and those dolls they stick pins in, not doing it to help promote the good guy I don’t think. Haitian voodoo/vaudou/Vôdun/ghoti\* is a hodge podge mix of West African animism and Christianity. Their belief system involves a monotheistic god “Bondye” (pidgin French for “the good god”, and what French missionaries used to call the Christian god), with a variety of supernatural spirits (Loa) working for him and doing the day-to-day maintenance of the world, guarding the barriers between the physical world and the spiritual realm etc… Some Loas are fickle and capricious, or prone to anger, but none are “evil”. There is no devil worship whatsoever (I’m not even positive they even \*have \*the concept of an antagonist to Bondye). - (old [joke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti)) ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/31 "2010-01-14T19:01:58Z")
> [@Joe Frickin Friday](#): > > You might find [this](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1573) informative. The ceremony described here sounds an awful lot like the Mau Mau oathing ceremonies in 1950s Kenya. Very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/32 "2010-01-14T19:02:33Z")
**Silverstreak Wonder** is ignorant of religion? I’M SHOCKED. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/33 "2010-01-14T19:16:05Z")
> [@Joe Frickin Friday](#): > > You might find [this](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1573) informative. Okay, so a bunch of priests got together and had a conference call with the Prince of Darkness. So… if my buddies and I get a ouija board, a Harry Potter book, a Marilyn Manson CD, then danced around in the moonlight saying: “On behalf of the United States…” could I screw the entire country for awhile? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/34 "2010-01-14T19:23:17Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > Okay, so a bunch of priests got together and had a conference call with the Prince of Darkness. > > So… if my buddies and I get a ouija board, a Harry Potter book, a Marilyn Manson CD, then danced around in the moonlight saying: “On behalf of the United States…” could I screw the entire country for awhile? They weren’t just priests, they were the founders of the slave revolt (IF it even happened)- it was more the equivalent of Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams & James Madison getting together for a sacrificial invocation rite. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/35 "2010-01-14T19:27:51Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > They weren’t just priests, they were the founders of the slave revolt (IF it even happened)- it was more the equivalent of Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams & James Madison getting together for a sacrificial invocation rite. But that only means anything if you actually believe that the “dark lord” exists and that he gives a crap about what we’re doing down here. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/36 "2010-01-14T19:31:36Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > They weren’t just priests, they were the founders of the slave revolt (IF it even happened)- it was more the equivalent of Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams & James Madison getting together for a sacrificial invocation rite. So OK, **Swallowed** and her buddies have their sacrificial invocation rite, overthrow the government of the US with the devil’s help, and _then_ the country is screwed. You could even inflict this on a country you don’t like. Say you don’t like Norway. You could have your sacrificial rite, then overthrow the government of Norway with the devil’s help, go home and leave the Norwegians to their own devices, and Norway is screwed for the next ~200 years. I’m surprised the CIA didn’t think to do this to Castro. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/37 "2010-01-14T19:36:54Z")
What doesn’t seem to work for me is that I didn’t think anyone else could sign _me_ up for a pact with the devil. Like my lawyer may be my agent and representative in business dealings, and may be able to hammer out a sweat deal with the Dark Master, but I would still have to inscribe my John Hancock on the contract, or at least provide a bloody thumbprint or something. And even if I did, why does that leave my pious great great great grandkids screwed? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/38 "2010-01-14T19:40:22Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > So OK, **Swallowed** and her buddies have their sacrificial invocation rite, overthrow the government of the US with the devil’s help, and _then_ the country is screwed. > > You could even inflict this on a country you don’t like. Say you don’t like Norway. You could have your sacrificial rite, then overthrow the government of Norway with the devil’s help, go home and leave the Norwegians to their own devices, and Norway is screwed for the next ~200 years. I’m surprised the CIA didn’t think to do this to Castro. I think they were too busy trying to control people’s minds by feeding them LSD (FTR, this only works in the very specific case where you want to order people to stare at the wall very intently or write the words “electric fish carburator” four thousand times). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/39 "2010-01-14T19:48:11Z")
Let’s get this straight- I do not know if the Boi Caiman ceremony ever occurred, what really happened or what deities/spirits were called upon if it did, nor do I necessarily believe it was spiritually efficacious. I’m just explaining the rationale behind the idea that a country’s founders could make a spiritual covenant binding upon their descendants until said descendants repudiated such a covanant. To make a Biblical comparison, Exodus 24 shows Israel’s tribal leaders led by Moses & Aaron making sacrifice & eating before The LORD and binding themselves & their descendants to the Covenant. I will say this- the root of culture is cult. Whatever system of worship & spiritual values is truly at the base of Haitian culture has had a major impact on the state of its society, whether or not the spirits behind it are real. And even though the population identifies as 85% Catholic, how many of them blend that with Voudou I do not know. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/40 "2010-01-14T19:50:52Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > What doesn’t seem to work for me is that I didn’t think anyone else could sign _me_ up for a pact with the devil. If you could do that, why wouldn’t people just sign the souls of their enemies over to the devil, rather than signing over their own? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940.md?page=3)