# Haitians "deal with the devil" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940 "2010-01-14T15:59:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/41 "2010-01-14T19:53:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Some Loas are fickle and capricious, or prone to anger, but none are “evil”. > There is no devil worship whatsoever (I’m not even positive they even \*have \*the concept of an antagonist to Bondye). I have never asked this of any poster before, but could you cite this please? I am quite certain that there are Loas that are invoked that would be considered (by most peoples standards) to represent evil. (if one believes in concepts like Loas or even the concept of evil itself). ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/42 "2010-01-14T20:17:07Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > I am quite certain that there are Loas that are invoked that would be considered (by most peoples standards) to represent evil. (if one believes in concepts like Loas or even the concept of evil itself). I read a book on Santeria (which is a combo of the Yoruba religion, Catholicism, and some Native American beliefs) back in university. I’m not sure how it compares to the religion practiced in Haiti, but I’m aware they have similar, origins. I would say they have a more variable pantheon and “evil” may be relative. More like for example, if you compare it to the Greek pantheon, let’s say you offer something up the Ares, as your favorite god of carnage and warfare who has a bit of a violence streak, in the hopes that he’ll go stomp your enemies. Ares was considered a bit more unpredictably violent. So you hope he’s in a good mood when you go say “hello” so your little plan doesn’t backfire. Some gods have nasty tempers and a mean streak. According to wiki, Ogun is actually very similar to Ares. Zeus, Hera all of them are prone to good moods, bad moods, nice one day and then mess with humanity the next, just for fun, etc. From what I gathered, there are some laos who may be assholes and prone to do nasty things, but they aren’t specifically “evil”, just ill-tempered jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/43 "2010-01-14T20:24:03Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I will say this- the root of culture is cult. Whatever system of worship & spiritual values is truly at the base of Haitian culture has had a major impact on the state of its society, whether or not the spirits behind it are real. And even though the population identifies as 85% Catholic, how many of them blend that with Voudou I do not know. How is that relevant to the earthquake? Earthquakes are natural disasters–not dependent on culture. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/44 "2010-01-14T20:33:10Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > How is that relevant to the earthquake? Earthquakes are natural disasters–not dependent on culture. I don’t think **FriatTed** is specifically talking about the earthquake. That’s not what the thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/45 "2010-01-14T20:36:38Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > I have never asked this of any poster before, but could you cite this please? > > I am quite certain that there are Loas that are invoked that would be considered (by most peoples standards) to represent evil. (if one believes in concepts like Loas or even the concept of evil itself). Yes and no. I’m no expert on the subject, and I suppose it depends on what your definition of “evil” is, when it comes to supernatural spirits. The way I see it, some Loas do govern not-nice domains, for example Carrefour who doles out all the bad luck and injustice, or Papa Ghede (you might know him as Baron Samedi) who’s essentially Death, but they are not evil in the sense of wishing harm on humans, deliberately setting out to tempt them or hurt them etc… It’s just that death and bad luck exist, so _someone_’s got to organize it. If those lwas are called upon to, say, bring bad luck to someone else, it’s not the lwa who’s evil - he’s just doing what he does. You might as well say gravity is evil because innocents fall to their death when pushed over a cliff. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/46 "2010-01-14T22:44:12Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > Okay, so a bunch of priests got together and had a conference call with the Prince of Darkness. > > So… if my buddies and I get a ouija board, a Harry Potter book, a Marilyn Manson CD, then danced around in the moonlight saying: “On behalf of the United States…” could I screw the entire country for awhile? How did you learn about the Skull-and-Bones ritual? I thought Yalies kept that extremely secret! :eek: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/47 "2010-01-14T23:54:11Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Robertson was referring to the violent Haitian slave rebellion against French colonialists back around 1800. Slaves won. So some southern Christian ministers are still going with St. Paul’s “_Slaves, obey your earthly masters_” (Ephesians 6:5), and objecting to slaves rebelling? Even in 2010? I thought most Christians started glossing over that part of the Holy Bible, and not following it, starting around the 1850’s. But it appears Robertson is still 150-some years behind. ---
**Author:** ![HawksPath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f07891/32.png) [@HawksPath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawksPath)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/48 "2010-01-15T01:32:24Z")
I think Robertson is full of rubbish, but it is not uncommon for Christian thinkers (and probably other Abrahamic religions) to think anyone invoking any supernatural power or entity that is not the one true God of the Abrahamic religions is actually invoking the devil. Based on this thinking everyone practicing Voodoo is worshipping the devil. To this way of thinking even the "good’ Voodoo gods are aspects of satan and of course not “good”. ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/49 "2010-01-15T04:01:03Z")
Haiti is a good repsitory of African religion, which doesn’t at all need to subscribe to Pat Roberson’s version of Christianity. It was a mix of African and Cathlolic French, which is foreign to Robertson’s mind . If that is Evil to him, and prevents him from having compassion in the time it is needed most in incredible circumstance,well, it seems sad. Perhaps any God worth wondering about is testing the faithful in how they act towards their most needing brothers in extreme duress. We’re up to it, and will prove to the task. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/50 "2010-01-15T04:05:37Z")
I’ve never called anyone a troll before. Not on the internet, and certainly not in real life. But I think Pat Roberston may be the best troll ever. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/51 "2010-01-15T04:30:43Z")
The depth to which Haitians embrace religion has a great deal to do with their downfall, and the same can be said of the idiot Robertson. Both ascribe their fortunes, or lack thereof, to the supernatural and fail to change that which is within their control. In short, no good ever comes from superstition ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/52 "2010-01-15T04:38:12Z")
> [@elelle](#): > > Haiti is a good repsitory of African religion, which doesn’t at all need to subscribe to Pat Roberson’s version of Christianity. It was a mix of African and Cathlolic French, which is foreign to Robertson’s mind . If that is Evil to him, and prevents him from having compassion in the time it is needed most in incredible circumstance,well, it seems sad. > > Perhaps any God worth wondering about is testing the faithful in how they act towards their most needing brothers in extreme duress. We’re up to it, and will prove to the task. I hate to have to defend Pat on this, but Pat never said that Haitians don’t deserve compassion or help, and he is sending loads himself. He foolishly tried to explain why that nation has such bad fortune, using material from their own “founding myth” (whether or not the Bai Caimon ceremony happened, it was embraced at the country’s bicentennial celebration). But he NEVER said “They deserve what happened to them & don’t deserve our help”- more like “This is why this crap happens to them, now let’s get to work to help them out & teach them about Christ & break the demonic curse.” As to how wonderful the Haitian mix of African & Catholic French religion is, well, I think the state of Haitian society & culture testifies to that. Btw, as a sign that some Evangelicals do learn, I get the e-letter from Falwell Ministries & Rev. Jonathan Falwell never tried to explain why this happened, just sent an appeal for funds & materials & is launching out aid. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/53 "2010-01-15T04:44:47Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > The depth to which Haitians embrace religion has a great deal to do with their downfall, and the same can be said of the idiot Robertson. Both ascribe their fortunes, or lack thereof, to the supernatural and fail to change that which is within their control. > > In short, no good ever comes from superstition Cite where Robertson advocates not doing anything to change what is under our control? I’m not even sure Voudoun endorses that sort of fatalism. I do go back to what I said about cult & culture. The validity of a cult (system of worship & values) can be shown in the kind of culture & society which grows out of it. Even if you dismiss all religion as superstition, some definitely show better results than others. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/54 "2010-01-15T04:59:37Z")
I disagree with that. The success or failure of a culture has nothing to do with its religion. It’s technology, resources and defensibility that matter, not specific magical beliefs. And if Pat Robertson is saying that Haiti is cursed by God, there is no other way to interporet that but that he’s saying they deserved it. God can’t give people what they don’t deserve, can he? It’s not even like this is the first time Roberston has said this about natural disasters. He says it all the time. After 9/11, Jerry Falwell used the exact words “what we deserve,” and Roberston agreed with it. ---
**Author:** ![Animastryfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/55 "2010-01-15T05:27:12Z")
This is what an associate professor of Religion, American Studies and African American Studies at my university [says](http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/14/haiti-earthquake-pat-robertson-opinions-contributors-elizabeth-mcalister.html). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/56 "2010-01-15T16:31:35Z")
> [@Animastryfe](#): > > This is what an associate professor of Religion, American Studies and African American Studies at my university [says](http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/14/haiti-earthquake-pat-robertson-opinions-contributors-elizabeth-mcalister.html). THAT is a good article! She understands what Pat was trying, in his insensitive fumbling way, to say & counters it expertly! ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/57 "2010-01-15T17:02:16Z")
Pat Robertson has been spewing this same sort of crap for so long I am amazed he has any audience at all, outside his “700” of course. He is the best evidence I have ever encountered that God actually exists because if there is a devil, IMO, Pat Robertson is the very form he would take. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/58 "2010-01-15T17:37:32Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > I’ve never called anyone a troll before. Not on the internet, and certainly not in real life. But I think Pat Roberston may be the best troll ever. He certainly looks like one. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940/59 "2010-01-15T17:42:13Z")
I just want to ask who would win in a cage match between Robertson and Fred Phelps. Also, if the Haitian earthquake is God’s punishment on those uppity darkies, are we subverting His will if we donate to the relief effort? Rob [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/haitians-deal-with-the-devil/524940.md?page=2)