# Hajj Stampede kills hundreds. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 24, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395 "2015-09-24T12:54:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/1 "2015-09-24T12:54:18Z")
[http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/saudi-arabia-150-pilgrims-dead-hajj-stampede-33998940](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/saudi-arabia-150-pilgrims-dead-hajj-stampede-33998940) I’ve seen numbers as high as 753 people killed. Hundreds more injured. How the hell does something like this happen? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/2 "2015-09-24T13:19:05Z")
Millions of people from all four corners of the globe in one small area, in extraordinarily hot weather, speaking about 9000 different languages… How the does it not happen _more_ often? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/3 "2015-09-24T13:20:21Z")
That’s horrible. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/4 "2015-09-24T13:24:50Z")
As the saying goes _A person_ is smart. _ **People** _ are dumb, panicky dangerous animals… ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/5 "2015-09-24T13:42:34Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > _A person_ is smart. _ **People** _ are dumb, panicky dangerous animals… I was reading about the Hillsborough disaster a while ago. It was quite interesting. Keep pouring enough people into a small enough area, and “smart” or “dumb” doesn’t even matter (except for the dumbness of mismanaging a crowd badly enough to let everyone end up in that small an area to begin with). Not even “panicky”, really (although the inevitable panic certainly doesn’t help). At a certain point, fluid dynamics takes over. A person is smart. People are smart or dumb, depending on the circumstances. A crowd in a crush is just a wobbly box of meat. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/6 "2015-09-24T13:54:48Z")
Too many people packed in together. Human wave. Once down, can’t get up. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/7 "2015-09-24T14:02:10Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Millions of people from all four corners of the globe in one small area, in extraordinarily hot weather, speaking about 9000 different languages… > > How the does it not happen _more_ often? [It does](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj). ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/8 "2015-09-24T14:23:45Z")
It’s almost as if the Saudi authorities have a history of rank incompetence or something. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/9 "2015-09-24T14:33:56Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > [It does](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj). Almost all of them related to the “Stoning of the Devil”, I guess he doesn’t take it very well. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/10 "2015-09-24T14:46:22Z")
I’m absolutely fascinated by human stampedes. They’re the only natural disaster in which the natural part is humans (but, as **PatriotX** says, humans in their basic classification as animals). The Hajj includes all the conditions for a stampede, so they sometimes happen there, but they can happen anywhere that crowds of people gather. A lot of stampedes happen at schools and concerts, famously the [Who concert](http://ultimateclassicrock.com/who-cincinnati-11-die-1979/)in Cincinnati in 1979. Wikipedia has a good [list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_stampedes). ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/11 "2015-09-24T14:59:44Z")
One is inclined to wonder what the role of the Saudi authorities is in this. I mean, I’ve never been to Mecca, but don’t they have queues, or something, or is it just a big, roughly linear mob? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/12 "2015-09-24T15:05:12Z")
The problem is that the Hajj is a pilgrimage required of all Muslims (if they are able), it takes place in one concentrated location, and it can only be observed at a certain time of year. Huge concentrated crowds in a small space at the same time (with the added complications of language) – as others have observed, it looks like a recipe for disaster. It’s not that the Saudis are incompetent – they have engaged in a lot of construction and engineering over the years to enable the pilgrims to attend the site in huge numbers and perform the required activities. They have engaged Crowd Control experts and personnel. But it’s an enormous social engineering problem. Imagine if all the kids in the world were required to visit Disneyland, and that the only time they could all go was Christmas break. even Disney’s people-movers would be hard pressed to keep up with the human tide. One obvious thing – to a non-Muslim – is to allow people to make the pilgrimage throughout the year, instead of requiring it at the one season. I’m sure there are solid reasons why they don’t already take this obvious step, but I’m not well-versed in the practices of Islam to know why. (And I’ve read about the religion for years) ---
**Author:** ![scruffycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scruffycat/32/200_2.png) [@scruffycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scruffycat)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/13 "2015-09-24T15:07:20Z")
They have done a fair amount of work there to make it safer I believe. However Iranian news reported that the Saud’s closed off two of the routes for some reason, I guess that funnelled people through a much smaller area again. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/14 "2015-09-24T15:16:53Z")
> [@scruffycat](#): > > Iranian news reported that the Saud’s closed off two of the routes for some reason Governor Christie, what are you doing in the Middle East? ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/15 "2015-09-24T15:37:14Z")
All of the dead pilgrims apparently go straight to heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/16 "2015-09-24T16:07:53Z")
The devil throws back. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/17 "2015-09-24T16:40:19Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > One obvious thing – to a non-Muslim – is to allow people to make the pilgrimage throughout the year, instead of requiring it at the one season. I’m sure there are solid reasons why they don’t already take this obvious step, but I’m not well-versed in the practices of Islam to know why. (And I’ve read about the religion for years) You can make a pilgrimage anytime of the year, its called [Umrah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umrah), I have made several for instance. [The Hajj](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajj), can only be done once a year. [QUOTE=Chefguy] It does. [/QUOTE] I am aware of the previous incidents. My point is that I am amazed you don’t see this many incidents every year. Its their relative rarity that surprised me, not the fact that they happen at all. I have a friend who was there, he is luckily ok. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/18 "2015-09-24T17:13:19Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Too many people packed in together. Human wave. Once down, can’t get up. Yep. Put in some energy at point A, and it just ripples, possibly getting the people at point Z in trouble. Which is especially shitty if the people at point Z don’t have anywhere to to go. And even more so if the people at point A are too far away to realize what is happening at point Z. I’m guessing that anyone who has been to a very crowded rock concert has something of a feel for the problem, in a minor sort of way. I had to stop going to those, because I frankly find them scary. Even though those are usually quite survivable. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/19 "2015-09-24T17:41:29Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > That’s horrible. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/20 "2015-09-24T17:47:54Z")
I was not aware that the Hajj could only be done at a certain time of year… or that there was a preferred time of year to do it. Over coffee this morning, it was discussed about how Disneyland manages crowds… all the way up until my honey said, “Yeah, but at Disneyland, there’s more to keep the crowds occupied than just the Haunted Mansion and the Matterhorn.” Seems like the Saudi Arabians could benefit from studying methods of crowd control used by other outfits and corporations… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395.md?page=2)