# Hajj Stampede kills hundreds. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 24, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395 "2015-09-24T12:54:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/21 "2015-09-24T17:51:16Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Wikipedia has a good [list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_stampedes). Yikes. Going by (a quick look at) the numbers on that list, it seems that the current event, while not a record breaker, is certainly a big one. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/22 "2015-09-24T17:52:28Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Yikes. Going by (a quick look at) the numbers on that list, it seems that the current event, while not a record breaker, is certainly a big one. …I would call that number of casualties large for anything short of a major earthquake or asteroid impact or something… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/23 "2015-09-24T18:21:59Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > I was not aware that the Hajj could only be done at a certain time of year… or that there was a preferred time of year to do it. Hajj, yes. Only one time of the year > [@](#): > > Over coffee this morning, it was discussed about how Disneyland manages crowds… all the way up until my honey said, “Yeah, but at Disneyland, there’s more to keep the crowds occupied than just the Haunted Mansion and the Matterhorn.” > > Seems like the Saudi Arabians could benefit from studying methods of crowd control used by other outfits and corporations… :rolleyes: Does Disneyland have over 2 million people in situ at the same time? And before anyone says, yes there are quotas by country, based approximately by population; Pakistan and Indonesia have about 150,000 each. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/24 "2015-09-24T18:26:42Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I’m absolutely fascinated by human stampedes. They’re the only natural disaster in which the natural part is humans (but, as **PatriotX** says, humans in their basic classification as animals). > > The Hajj includes all the conditions for a stampede, so they sometimes happen there, but they can happen anywhere that crowds of people gather. A lot of stampedes happen at schools and concerts, famously the [Who concert](http://ultimateclassicrock.com/who-cincinnati-11-die-1979/)in Cincinnati in 1979. Wikipedia has a good [list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_stampedes). The Who played the Civic Arena in Pittsburgh the night before the Cincinnati event. I was as the Pittsburgh show, at the front of the stage, and can attest that the disaster very nearly occurred right there. People were so tightly packed in that somone shifting their position at one location caused others to nearly fall down fifty feet away. Someone going to the floor would almost certainly have gotten trampled. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/25 "2015-09-24T18:34:58Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > Over coffee this morning, it was discussed about how Disneyland manages crowds… all the way up until my honey said, “Yeah, but at Disneyland, there’s more to keep the crowds occupied than just the Haunted Mansion and the Matterhorn.” Right. This incident happened about a kilometer away from the three pillars. If Disneyland had just one ride accessible only one afternoon a year, and over a billion people thought they had a religious duty to go on that ride at least once in their lifetime if they were financially and physically capable, that is the scale of the problem that Saudi Arabia has to solve. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/26 "2015-09-24T20:32:12Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Right. This incident happened about a kilometer away from the three pillars. If Disneyland had just one ride accessible only one afternoon a year, and over a billion people thought they had a religious duty to go on that ride at least once in their lifetime if they were financially and physically capable, that is the scale of the problem that Saudi Arabia has to solve. Well, it seems very simple to me, that what they ought to do is… …well, no, phrased like that, it ain’t simple at all, even with the money and infrastructure Saudi Arabia can muster…:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/27 "2015-09-24T23:14:26Z")
It’s actually shockingly _easy_ to end up with a killer crowd situation - there’s quite a good book called _Unthinkable_ that’s about people’s reactions in different situations that had a section on Hajj stampedes. You can actually die without hitting the ground in a situation like that. I’m trying to find the number of people in proximity to you that the book cited as the tipping point - not sure if this is the same stat but [this article](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/07/crush-point) says 7 people per square meter, which sounds _bad_, and scary, but not the kind of cramming you’d think it would take. You can die carried along by the crowd - you don’t necessarily get trampled, you can just get squished. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/28 "2015-09-24T23:35:58Z")
My uncle-by-marriage (to my recently late aunt) posted a news article about this on Facebook today with his own comment “You have good days and bad days. This is a very good day for me.” He’s been unfollowed. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/29 "2015-09-25T01:19:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Hajj, yes. Only one time of the year > :rolleyes: > Does Disneyland have over 2 million people in situ at the same time? > > And before anyone says, yes there are quotas by country, based approximately by population; Pakistan and Indonesia have about 150,000 each. And yes - quotas are a “hotly contested” thing - many countries must have ballots or some form of selection / ranking to decide on who must go. I know that here, people may apply many times before they get to do their pilgrimage. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/30 "2015-09-25T01:22:29Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Right. This incident happened about a kilometer away from the three pillars. If Disneyland had just one ride accessible only one afternoon a year, and over a billion people thought they had a religious duty to go on that ride at least once in their lifetime if they were financially and physically capable, that is the scale of the problem that Saudi Arabia has to solve. And it’s not neccessarily financially able - many many people are sponsored in someway to attend the Hajj. Complicating the matter further of course - is that for many, it is not really affordable - which leads to less than ideal compromises in terms of accomodation etc… Naturally also - as you get older, your priority increases, which makes the whole situation even worse (older, less healthy people attending) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/31 "2015-09-25T05:21:56Z")
At least in Pakistan, they don’t allow you to go alone, you have to travel with family or as part of a group… although the cynic in me says its to conform with Saudi “no single woman” rules without making it illegal under our own laws. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/32 "2015-09-25T06:55:38Z")
:rolleyes: I’ve told the Saudis a hundred times. Wait until \*after \* most of the visitors are gone to ring the dinner bell. But, they just won’t listen. The smell of fresh barbecue draws a big, uncontrollable crowd every time. Seriously, I hope the early fatality estimates are incorrect. Some articles are claiming seven hundred deaths. That has to be much too high. Such a senseless tragedy. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/33 "2015-09-25T06:58:19Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Right. This incident happened about a kilometer away from the three pillars. If Disneyland had just one ride accessible only one afternoon a year, and over a billion people thought they had a religious duty to go on that ride at least once in their lifetime if they were financially and physically capable, that is the scale of the problem that Saudi Arabia has to solve. So Black Friday at The Holiest Of Sites, Our Blessed Mother of Discounts, Walmart then. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/34 "2015-09-25T14:52:59Z")
looks like a virtual reality tour would solve the problem-could Rick Steves do a TV tour? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/35 "2015-09-25T15:02:33Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > looks like a virtual reality tour would solve the problem-could Rick Steves do a TV tour? You really think this was nothing more than a sight-seeing trip? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/36 "2015-09-25T15:50:55Z")
Question: My understanding is that to accommodate crowding, the Saudis expanded the site for the stoning of the devil from one narrow pillar to three much larger ones. If this change was permissible, could the Saudis attempt to disperse the crowd by raising fifty such pillars? I guess my question goes both to the doctrinal specifications for the stoning and to the available space in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/37 "2015-09-26T01:19:46Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Question: My understanding is that to accommodate crowding, the Saudis expanded the site for the stoning of the devil from one narrow pillar to three much larger ones. If this change was permissible, could the Saudis attempt to disperse the crowd by raising fifty such pillars? > > I guess my question goes both to the doctrinal specifications for the stoning and to the available space in the area. I was thinking of something along the same lines: could the various schools of Islamic law issue decrees saying that _hajj_ could be performed at any time of the year? Is that even possible, or is the month of _hajj_ a set-in-stone tradition that the world’s Muslims simply wouldn’t countenance changing? I know we’ve got some Muslim posters in the thread, who could weigh in… ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/38 "2015-09-26T08:12:43Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > My uncle-by-marriage (to my recently late aunt) posted a news article about this on Facebook today with his own comment “You have good days and bad days. This is a very good day for me.” > > He’s been unfollowed. I have a co-worker who made a similar “joke” yesterday. I let him know it wasn’t funny, but I don’t think it made any difference to him. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/39 "2015-09-26T10:09:48Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > I was thinking of something along the same lines: could the various schools of Islamic law issue decrees saying that _hajj_ could be performed at any time of the year? Is that even possible, or is the month of _hajj_ a set-in-stone tradition that the world’s Muslims simply wouldn’t countenance changing? It seems unlikely. Everyone going at once is part of what makes it what it is, so performing the pilgrimage at another time of year wouldn’t have the same purpose as a display of unity between Muslims. An idea that might have a better chance of sticking is to declare that physically interfering with a person’s pilgrimage is “despised” - an act of last resort. A religious obligation to not push other pilgrims out of your way should be much easier to sell as respect for the sanctity of the pilgrimage, and complying with that law would automatically make a crush impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/40 "2015-09-26T10:42:58Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It seems unlikely. Everyone going at once is part of what makes it what it is, so performing the pilgrimage at another time of year wouldn’t have the same purpose as a display of unity between Muslims. > > An idea that might have a better chance of sticking is to declare that physically interfering with a person’s pilgrimage is “despised” - an act of last resort. A religious obligation to not push other pilgrims out of your way should be much easier to sell as respect for the sanctity of the pilgrimage, and complying with that law would automatically make a crush impossible. On the other hand an unintended consequence would be people ignoring crowd control measures on religious grounds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395.md?page=3)