# Hajj Stampede kills hundreds. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 24, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395 "2015-09-24T12:54:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/41 "2015-09-26T10:53:14Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I have a co-worker who made a similar “joke” yesterday. I let him know it wasn’t funny, but I don’t think it made any difference to him. Couldn’t that coworker’s statement be considered as contributing to a hostile working environment? ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/42 "2015-09-26T15:49:58Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > So Black Friday at The Holiest Of Sites, Our Blessed Mother of Discounts, Walmart then. You’re referring to [this](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html?_r=0)? ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/43 "2015-09-26T17:37:50Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It seems unlikely. Everyone going at once is part of what makes it what it is, so performing the pilgrimage at another time of year wouldn’t have the same purpose as a display of unity between Muslims. > > An idea that might have a better chance of sticking is to declare that physically interfering with a person’s pilgrimage is “despised” - an act of last resort. A religious obligation to not push other pilgrims out of your way should be much easier to sell as respect for the sanctity of the pilgrimage, and complying with that law would automatically make a crush impossible. These sorts of things can happen without anybody specifically pushing - what happens often is that the people at the back keep moving, completely unaware that there’s a blockage up ahead. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/44 "2015-09-26T18:44:53Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You really think this was nothing more than a sight-seeing trip? yes. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/45 "2015-09-27T00:22:56Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > These sorts of things can happen without anybody specifically pushing - what happens often is that the people at the back keep moving, completely unaware that there’s a blockage up ahead. But that means that _everyone_ is pushing. A blockage up ahead only causes a crush if the people at the back push people into it. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/46 "2015-09-27T00:39:00Z")
There’s pushing, and then there’s pushing. Once people are packed in against each other, even slight motion (as contrasted with deliberate shoving), multiplied many times over by the number of people, can cause significant trouble. The root of the problem is too many people in too small a space. The Saudi’s have done a lot so far, but they still have a very long way to go in making it physically impossible for such crowding to take place. Martian Bigfoot nailed it in one further up thread: > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > At a certain point, fluid dynamics takes over. . . . A crowd in a crush is just a wobbly box of meat. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/47 "2015-09-27T02:18:14Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > looks like a virtual reality tour would solve the problem-could Rick Steves do a TV tour? You are being very disrespectful. But to answer your obvious ignorance, no, Mr. Steves could not do it, he’s not Muslim, but Lutheran. Back when the National Geographic had an article on Mecca they sent a Muslim, Thomas Abercrombie. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/48 "2015-09-28T01:34:50Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You really think this was nothing more than a sight-seeing trip? That’s a rather loaded question isn’t it? To me, as a non-believer - the Hajj amounts to nothing more than a sightseeing trip. What’s more, a sightseeing trip encouraged by foolish and wasteful ideas of what’s right. That’s to me. To the Muslims I know - the Hajj is an important life event, something that needs to be done at all costs and something that they make significant sacrifices for. Something that they also make sacrifices for others to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/49 "2015-09-28T02:17:16Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > That’s a rather loaded question isn’t it? No. It’s a direct question to ascertain if the individual queried is aware of what that individual is describing. > [@](#): > > To me, as a non-believer - the Hajj amounts to nothing more than a sightseeing trip. To you, as a non-Muslim, if you were to participate (and if such participation were permitted for a non-Muslim), it would be essentially a sight-seeing trip. For the Muslims participating, it’s obviously not such a thing. Note that your lack of belief in their religion does not relegate the event to the category of tourism. > [@](#): > > What’s more, a sightseeing trip encouraged by foolish and wasteful ideas of what’s right. There really are practical aspects to the Hajj. One is the idea that a person so dedicated to the ideals of a religion that he would make the Hajj would also evidence his dedication in his day-to-day life. > [@](#): > > That’s to me. > > To the Muslims I know - the Hajj is an important life event, something that needs to be done at all costs and something that they make significant sacrifices for. Something that they also make sacrifices for others to achieve. Ah, so you are aware that it’s not tourism. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/50 "2015-09-28T03:28:59Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > No. It’s a direct question to ascertain if the individual queried is aware of what that individual is describing. > > To you, as a non-Muslim, if you were to participate (and if such participation were permitted for a non-Muslim), it would be essentially a sight-seeing trip. For the Muslims participating, it’s obviously not such a thing. Note that your lack of belief in their religion does not relegate the event to the category of tourism. > > There really are practical aspects to the Hajj. One is the idea that a person so dedicated to the ideals of a religion that he would make the Hajj would also evidence his dedication in his day-to-day life. > > Ah, so you are aware that it’s not tourism. Why you being like dat Willis? A bit unnecessarily antagonistic? Yeah, I know people that have been on their Hajj, I see the reporting here on Hajj quotas and similar. The point to be made - “tourism” or not is in the eyes of the beholder ain’t it? There is no “scientific” basis for the need for the Hajj - so strictly speaking it is all “tourism”. On the other hand, the personal importance of the pilgrimage cannot be ignored. In my mind - the “solution” would be to have the “only at a specific time” limitation removed - with “year round” visits satisfying the strictures of the relevant pillars of Islam (yes, completing the Hajj is one of the pillars of the religion if I recall correctly). As much as I don’t believe in any form of God, I still do believe that religions should be living things that adapt and update with the times. Simple enough? Or am I some sort of unholy bigot? And for the record - no, I would never actually equate completing the Hajj to “mere tourism” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/51 "2015-09-28T10:37:41Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Why you being like dat Willis? My name is not Willis. And your affectation of that asinine line is not really impressive. > [@](#): > > A bit unnecessarily antagonistic? Not at all. > [@](#): > > Yeah, I know people that have been on their Hajj, I see the reporting here on Hajj quotas and similar. > > The point to be made - “tourism” or not is in the eyes of the beholder ain’t it? Nope. > [@](#): > > There is no “scientific” basis for the need for the Hajj - so strictly speaking it is all “tourism”. Last I heard, anthropology–to include cultural anthropology–is a science. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, the personal importance of the pilgrimage cannot be ignored. So, you’re aware that it’s not tourism, but you’re still posting that BS that it is. > [@](#): > > In my mind - the “solution” would be to have the “only at a specific time” limitation removed - with “year round” visits satisfying the strictures of the relevant pillars of Islam (yes, completing the Hajj is one of the pillars of the religion if I recall correctly). The voyage itself does not constitute the entirety of the Hajj. It, like any number of other date-specific commemorations, is geared to recognize something that happened (or is purported to have happened) in that time of year. > [@](#): > > As much as I don’t believe in any form of God, I still do believe that religions should be living things that adapt and update with the times. Many religions are adapting to the times, even some branches of Islam. > [@](#): > > Simple enough? Or am I some sort of unholy bigot? No, you’re just being flippant and, apparently, not really paying attention to your own posts. > [@](#): > > And for the record - no, I would never actually equate completing the Hajj to “mere tourism” Ah, but you did. Unless some poltergeist hijacked your account and made that post about sightseeing. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/52 "2015-10-09T21:49:33Z")
Update with relevant info: The Associated Press has done some digging and come up with a horrifying new number: [At least 1453 people died in that stampede](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/the-hajj-stampede-twice-as-bad-as-the-saudis-said/409900/), which already is almost twice as many as the Saudis claim. That makes it the worst stampede in Mecca’s history, surpassing even the disaster of 1990. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/53 "2015-10-09T23:48:44Z")
The facilities at Mecca for handling huge crowds are already epic in scope. For example, one stage of the Hajj requires throwing stones at three pillars that represent the devil. In olden days there were three stone pillars standing out in the open and you’d walk up to them and throw pebbles. [Now the “pillars” are 100’ high stone walls surrounded by a 5-story parking garage-like structure.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaraat_Bridge#/media/File:The_sprawling_Jamarat_bridge_-_Flickr_-_Al_Jazeera_English.jpg) And even with extreme accommodations like this, people are still being crushed in stampedes. It’s hard to imagine what else can be done in terms of engineering to solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395/54 "2015-10-10T10:34:27Z")
Reserved rather than open access would help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hajj-stampede-kills-hundreds/732395.md?page=2)