# Half Pit, Half Praise: Teen relative punished for honest agnosticism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 31, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441 "2008-10-31T15:51:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Myrrajh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@Myrrajh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrrajh)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/61 "2008-11-01T01:12:43Z")
Good for Jess. I think it’s more important to be honest with yourself than to pretend just to satisfy others. I get a great deal of meaning and happiness from my religion, but I also believe it should not be forced on anyone. While her parents may see her as failing them and their religious community, I don’t think she deserved to be punished for admitting that she wasn’t sure. At her age she deserves to know things for herself. I went through a similar thing when I left one flavor of Christianity as a young adult and joined another one. My mom acted like I just took a huge dump on the family and cried for days. She very quickly realized, though, that I was much happier with my new church than I’d ever been with the old one. She’s been very supportive ever since. It was a good lesson for her, too. Jess, good on you for being honest. If you feel a need for religion in your life, I hope you can find something that will be a joyful part of your life. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/62 "2008-11-01T01:40:52Z")
More admiration here for Jess. Way cool for her. And glad to see that she is getting support from her aunt and uncle. > [@Risha](#): > > Someone on these very boards once explained to me the train of thought. These parents probably honestly believe that she will go to hell for this, which is why these kind of people try to make something that isn’t any of their business, into their business. To them, it’s an evil act _not_ to. > > I will say that I’ve been more understanding of this sort of behavior ever since. I still loathe them, but it makes more sense. The problem I have is that, as **Skald** points out, the behavior isn’t going to change anyone’s beliefs - just how they express them. And reinforce any doubts that they have in the first place. It’s not merely effed up from a non-religious POV, from a religious POV, it’s still messed up because it’s most likely to have the opposite effect of what is intended. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/63 "2008-11-01T03:30:55Z")
> [@Elysium](#): > > I feel for Jess. I grew up Roman Catholic. I refused to be confirmed at age 14 along with my peers. > > I told my mother I wouldn’t stand in front of a Cardinal and lie to him, she encouraged me to do it anyway and then I would never have to go to church again. > > I tried to explain, rationally, that the point of Catholic Confirmation is that it is recognized that at age 14, one is old enough to confirm whether they want to continue in the church. My mother thought I was too young to decide. It didn’t make any sense to me. > > There was a lot of screaming and yelling and slamming of doors. She tried everything from guilt (Great-grandma left Ireland so that her kids could be Roman Catholic in freedom!) to shame (Your grandmother will be so disappointed!) to bribery (We can’t have a confirmation party with all the money and gifts!). I kept my stance and eventually she had to concede that she couldn’t force me into a sacrament. > > Now it’s “Too bad my daughter’s going to Hell!” Huh-actually our teacher told us that if we felt either way-that if we were ready and our parents said we weren’t, or vice versa, to talk to her, and she’d stick up for us. (I have no idea looking back, if that would have been the case, but who knows?) **RickJay** , it can be religion, it can be politics, it can be money, or basically, whatever. I think it’s because people are assholes, and use any of the above as an excuse. Hey-look at the USSR. An atheist society, and yet still a dictatorship, and horrendous human rights abusers. But either way, good for Jess, and I hope you can help her out, **Skald**. Good luck to her, and hopefully her parents will come around. It’s fear and ignorance-I think especially the former, that drives people to act this way. ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/64 "2008-11-01T03:31:41Z")
Yep, more support for Jess. The thing that strikes me about what we’ve been told is, not only was she standing up for herself at such a young age, not only did she do it based on careful reason and logic, but that she explained her point of view _politely_. That makes the moral highground so, so solid. I mean, at that age if someone had told me to say I _heart_ Jesus I either would have done it or not been polite about it. The ability to reason, to stand by that reason, and to do it with a level of maturity not found in many adults. That I find impressive. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/65 "2008-11-01T03:51:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **RickJay** , it can be religion, it can be politics, it can be money, or basically, whatever. I think it’s because people are assholes, and use any of the above as an excuse. Hey-look at the USSR. An atheist society, and yet still a dictatorship, and horrendous human rights abusers. Yes, yes, I know, some people are assholes. But look… We have to exchange goods for other goods. Money’s real. We have to have some sort of organizational structure to run our affairs; politics is real. We don’t need religion. God is fantasy. Money and politics can lead to trouble, but they’re real things we have to deal with, and we get a lot of benefit out of them in addition to the problems. God is NOT a real thing, and the benefits we get out of God are pretty damned slim. Sorry, I’m hijacking a bit, but there’s always a reflexive “well, it’s not a problem with religion, it’s just some religious people are bad apples” reaction to these stories. Time after time after time we haear about people mistreating other people because of their bleief in various spirits and gods and whatnot, and time after time half the responses are “well, of course, Christianity/Islam/Hinduism/Whatever is really a religion of peace, it’s just that some people are assholes.” I’m just not buying it anymore; the no-true-Scotsman dodge stopped convincing me after about Story #1,577,086. I’m always interested to note that if the person’s fantasies are classified as Scientology, we rip them apart, but if it’s called Christianity or Islam or Judaism, we’re supposed to give it a pass. Why? It’s just as silly and the effects are just as cruel. Would Jess be grounded, and be stuck in a very uncomfortable conflict with her family right now, if her parents DIDN’T believe in their little legends? No, she would not. She might get grounded next month for something else, but she wouldn’t have been this time. Religion is a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/66 "2008-11-01T04:36:35Z")
I’m Christian, fairly devout, and think Jess is cool. Anyone who is honest in the way she was is a strong person. At least she had been reading and trying to understand, even if it didn’t happen. And there’s always hope that sometime she’ll “change her mind” and find faith. Her parents will accomplish nothing by the treatment they are handing out. You can’t force people to believe ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/67 "2008-11-01T04:45:34Z")
**RickJay** , I’m not saying, “Well, religion is good, it’s just some bad apples,” either. I’m saying that since religion is created by HUMAN BEINGS, it’s bound to be corrupt, if you get my meaning. (And this is coming from someone who does actually believe in god-well, a vague, not specific religion god.) I would think that religion is simply a reflection of humans, who created it in the first place. (But that’s because I’m a total cynic who hates humanity, and think we’re all a bunch of assholes.) Think about it. To say, “Well, if it weren’t for such and such beliefs, they’d be okay” to me is a cop out and giving people an excuse for being assholes. ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/68 "2008-11-01T09:38:58Z")
> [@Caveat\_lector\_1](#): > > I’m curious what you mean by this as I’ve never known confirmation to have anything to do with membership. Once someone has confirmed their faith in the Catholic Church, the thinking is they will stick with it. When they’re old enough, they’ll become members of the parish on their own merit and begin donating under their own name instead of under their parents, therefore continuing to expand membership as kids grow up and start their own families. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/69 "2008-11-01T12:43:51Z")
I swear you ought to need a license to procreate. Doubt is the road to faith. Everyone begins with doubt. Some outgrow it, some don’t. But faith cannot be forced. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/70 "2008-11-01T12:56:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The relative in question is my first cousin once removed–i.e., the child of one of my first cousins, “Lynn,” and her husband, “Steve.” I’ll call the child in question “Jess.” Jess is 14 or 15 years old, and the oldest of four. Next time you see Jess, pass a high-five along to her. I was about that age when I discovered that religion is a lie from start to finish. Tell her to stick to her guns and don’t back down; she’ll have some rough times ahead of her, especially with pea-brained fundy parents. Suggestion, also, to pass on to her: every time her parents say that gawd wants her to do this or that, just ask them to please show proof of the existence of a god of any kind. And keep asking it over and over, because they won’t be able to. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/71 "2008-11-01T13:27:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’d like to get rid of ideologically-based war, too, but I’m unclear as to what that has to do with the fact that religion is (a) false, and (b) destructive. Religion is not false regardless of the fact that religious explanations may be false for you. Religion exists in every culture and throughout all of recorded human history. It’s a fact that has an effect on many, many lives; inherently on more human lives than are affected by democracy. Religion is destructive in the same way political ideology can be. Not all human suffering can be attributed to religion. Intolerance knows no bounds. Intolerance of differing belief, ideas, cultural practice, color, age, nationality, you name it. All intolerance is not traced back to religion. Religion has been so ingrained in human life for so many centuries in so many cultures, any time you try to extricate cultural practice from religious belief, you can find plenty of ways to tie it all back together. But it’s just one of several reasons for human behavior. You, with your ‘Religion is False’ pronouncement, are only one step away from impacting the lives of others with your intolerance. You already have the reason. What separates you from the rest of the intolerant people is the action you take or don’t take. You may not like religion much. You may not agree with its premises. There’s nothing wrong with sharing your opinion. Just realize that when you try cramming it down other people’s throats, while alluding to inferiority, it’s not a lot different than religious proselytizers doing the same thing with their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/72 "2008-11-01T13:52:19Z")
Good girl Jess! I made a stand at 11 and refused to do the catholic confirmation crap. It caused some ripples in the family (grandparents, mostly. My parents were amused.) I argued my case quite rationally and, well, there was no way in hell anyone was going to make me say the bloody credo if I didn’t believe in it. I’ve been a heathen since. Not so long ago, one of the bishops in my hometown area decided he really wanted to go back to the days when baptism, “pardon” and confirmation were all wrapped into one ceremony – he felt the numbers were declining and, well, get 'em while they’re young, ya know? I believe the whole idea was shot down… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/73 "2008-11-01T15:40:52Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > A two-week grounding for expressing doubt about Jesus? In a Pentecostal church? In front of God and everybody? I can’t defend it but the punishment could have been a lot worse. Are you sure Steve and Lynn are really Pentecostal? Maybe they have some doubts themselves. 😉 I should have written small-p pentecostal; I’m fairly sure they’re Church of God in Christ, as that is what my cousin & i were raised as. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/74 "2008-11-01T15:53:22Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > You, with your ‘Religion is False’ pronouncement, are only one step away from impacting the lives of others with your intolerance. You already have the reason. What separates you from the rest of the intolerant people is the action you take or don’t take. > > You may not like religion much. You may not agree with its premises. There’s nothing wrong with sharing your opinion. Just realize that when you try cramming it down other people’s throats, while alluding to inferiority, it’s not a lot different than religious proselytizers doing the same thing with their beliefs. Well at least he’s not saying that people who don’t agree with him will burn in a lake of fire for all eternity, or strapping on a bomb and boarding a bus, or using religion to convince people to vote against their own economic interests. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/75 "2008-11-01T15:55:38Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I’m Christian, fairly devout, and think Jess is cool. Anyone who is honest in the way she was is a strong person. At least she had been reading and trying to understand, even if it didn’t happen. And there’s always hope that sometime she’ll “change her mind” and find faith. > > **Her parents will accomplish nothing by the treatment they are handing out.** You can’t force people to believe Not entirely true. They will support the worldview that Christianity is evil and Christians are hypocrites. I’m not saying that worldview is the correct one; I don’t think all Christians are bad or that it’s a necessarily evil force in the sense that, say, Marxism is. But THAT is the lesson they are teaching her. [QUOTE=Clothahump] Suggestion, also, to pass on to her: every time her parents say that gawd wants her to do this or that, just ask them to please show proof of the existence of a god of any kind. And keep asking it over and over, because they won’t be able to. [/QUOTE] I think not. if I’d done that at her age, I’d have gotten a whipping with it in short order, and while I don’t know that my cousin and her husband would do that, I know they spank for other stuff. I’d rather she learned to be sneaky. [QUOTE=Anduinel] If you could manage to get a list of her books that were confiscated and/or trashed, I’m sure I’m not the only one here who’d be willing to help replace them. [/QUOTE] :smack: I am officially a moron. They still had the damn books there the other night, waiting to be trashed. I should have volunteered to sort through them to the curb, taken them home, and quietly let the kid know I had them. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/76 "2008-11-01T15:59:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > :smack: > > I am officially a moron. They still had the damn books there the other night, waiting to be trashed. I should have volunteered to sort through them to the curb, taken them home, and quietly let the kid know I had them. This is being too hard on yourself. It would have been great to think of that at the time, but you already did a great job by both confronting the parents, and letting Jess know you did support her. Sure, it’s a missed opportunity - but not a good reason to insult someone I like. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/77 "2008-11-01T16:03:39Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think not. Good idea - there’s no point encouraging Jess to go out of her way to be antagonistic to her parents just to prove some meaningless point. Better to just smile and nod, smile and nod, and just get the heck outta there ASAP. If she knows that she has other relatives in her corner, that’ll help a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/78 "2008-11-01T16:04:02Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > This is being too hard on yourself. It would have been great to think of that at the time, but you already did a great job by both confronting the parents, and letting Jess know you did support her. > > Sure, it’s a missed opportunity - but not a good reason to insult someone I like. 😉 No, I deliberately wasn’t especially confrontational with the parents. My thoughts were that I could stay sort of under the radar so the kid would have someone in the family whom she could turn to for, say, internet access, or general support. The whole time Mrs. Rhymer was exploding, I kept telepathing, “Shut up! You’re the adult in the best position to be helpful to the kid!” Stupid non-mutant brain. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/79 "2008-11-01T16:04:06Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Well at least he’s not saying that people who don’t agree with him will burn in a lake of fire for all eternity, or strapping on a bomb and boarding a bus, or using religion to convince people to vote against their own economic interests. Sure. And Obama has also noted his religious faith, yet he’s not doing any of those things either. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441/80 "2008-11-01T16:09:12Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > No, I deliberately wasn’t especially confrontational with the parents. But you don’t have to be confrontational to present them with a calm, reasoned statement that their behavior is not likely to change Jess’ behavior in the manner they want, and will only foster the belief that she’ll be punished for telling the truth. I believe that meets the standard for confronting someone with an unconsidered position or argument. If you want to call what you did presenting reasonable concerns, I won’t argue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-pit-half-praise-teen-relative-punished-for-honest-agnosticism/470441.md?page=5)