# Half the country (U.S.) doesn't pay taxes **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2011, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775 "2011-04-09T12:05:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/41 "2011-04-10T20:43:29Z")
since 1980 the Democrats have let the tax issue get away from them. Tax cuts for the rich do not lead to jobs for the unemployed. When most Americans got more from the government than they paid in taxes the Democrats dominated the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/42 "2011-04-10T22:40:29Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Yes, but many people do not do that. Some do it intentionally because they view it as a form of savings (to which I counter it is an interest-free loan to the Federal government), others aren’t totally comfortable opting out of withholding, and many aren’t aware it is possible (including many employers.) Is an interest-free loan to the government that much worse than a nearly-interest-free loan to a bank? To use your nephew as an example, if he put all of his federal withholding in a savings account over the course of a year, he would be lucky if he got a crisp new ten dollar bill in interest at the end of the year. ETA: I guess a bank account is a lot more liquid, though. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/43 "2011-04-11T05:37:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Are you joking? The Repubs stand in front of mikes and say taxes on the “job creators” will hurt the economy. They have been getting their taxes slashed over and over. Where are the jobs? Well if you include India, China and 3rd world countries, there may be a few. But they are cutting jobs in America while we slash their taxes. Does that seem like a good idea? I put CSPAN on the other day and some congress critter was making the reasonable case that the deficit is too high and that we are spending a lot of our budget just servicing the debt. Great so far. Then he starts talking about the FAIR tax. Is it not immediately obvious to anyone with two lobes to rub together that if you lower the taxes one group pays then another group will pay more, and that the group that the FAIR tax helps are the wealthy, which leaves us with who paying more? Yes indeed, that’s the problem we are facing in this country: the poor don’t pay enough in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/44 "2011-04-11T06:01:34Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > I see this over and over “Half the people in this country don’t pay any taxes at all!” > > Then someone throws up the graph of federal spending dominated by social security and medicare and says “and look how much money we’re spending on those folks that don’t pay anything”. > > Face it: Most americans pay ~15% of their salaries in payroll taxes that go straight toward that SS/medicare spending. Half the country doesn’t make enough money to owe income tax. Which is fine, income tax isn’t supposed to be universal. But it might be good to point out that half the country don’t even make middle-class incomes–we’re underpaid. But every employer is still on the hook for our single-payer health care system that doesn’t actually cover the employees. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/45 "2011-04-11T06:04:45Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Yes, but many people do not do that. Some do it intentionally because they view it as a form of savings (to which I counter it is an interest-free loan to the Federal government), others aren’t totally comfortable opting out of withholding, and many aren’t aware it is possible (including many employers.) Are you really allowed to opt out? Growing up in Canada I was under the impression it was required and continued that thought when I moved to the US. I also thought the government used that money through out the year. It reminds me a lot of having escrow on a mortgage payment, for the longest time I thought it was required, asked around and found everyone I knew used it. Finally after some digging I learned I can opt out and then just pay the insurance and tax on my own, letting me hold the money instead of someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/46 "2011-04-11T06:10:13Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Putting that in (I’m sure he probably has other stuff that might be pre-tax taken out of his paycheck, for example some medical plans can lower AGI), it results in: > > ``` > Semi-monthly Gross Pay > $1,666.67 Federal Withholding > $92.29 Social Security > $70.00 Medicare > $24.17 West Virginia > $44.00 Pension > $75.00 > > ``` You might want to correct this. You haven’t put down his bimonthly withholding, which I suspect is a mite smaller than $1,666. > [@](#): > > Multiply that by 24 = > 40,000.08 Gross Pay > 2,214.96 Federal Withholding > 1,680 Social Security > 580.08 Medicare > 1,056 State Withholding > > The $8,000 from his Federal return is \> than the sum of all the taxes taken out of his paycheck in a year ($5,531). Exactly how is he getting $8,000 back again? Property tax and mortgage interest comes off adjusted gross income, and aren’t tax credits. Which tax credits increase a refund of his federal withholding to $8,000? I suspect he’d get some of his state withholding back, but you said $8K was federal. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/47 "2011-04-11T06:15:07Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > It’s of course possible to mitigate this: when you raise existing taxes, lower the income threshold for paying taxes, so that more people have to pay something. This is a great idea, and you can do it without changing the tax code at all. All you have to do is raise the minimum wage so that every American with just a few exceptions will make enough to pay taxes. Problem solved. Don’t like that? I see - making the poor pay more taxes will have no negative effect, though they have very little, while making the rich pay a bit more in taxes will bring the country to its knees. Scrooge was a flippin’ philanthropist before the events of A Christmas Carol compared to Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/48 "2011-04-11T06:15:25Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Although I’m less likely to identify myself as an economic conservative than I used to be, I think the fact that a lot of people pay no federal income tax is a potentially dangerous thing: if you don’t pay taxes, you won’t necessarily care whether government raises them on people who do. Or how high. > > And if it’s necessary to raise income taxes to pay for services these non-taxpayers receive, they’ll be even less opposed to raising them. As the saying goes, a government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul. And Peter should be concerned if 47% of households are Pauls. > > It’s of course possible to mitigate this: when you raise existing taxes, lower the income threshold for paying taxes, so that more people have to pay something. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s a lot worse than that. With a progressive income tax, anyone below a give marginal rate isn’t affected when that marginal rate is raised. Right, because the income distribution generated by the private sector is both ideal and sacred, & the government has no right nor authority to redistribute wealth & opportunity in the economy. The government is ethically, nay, morally obligated to stand by while the wealthy use their wealth to gain more wealth. Yeah, bourgeois classical liberals have tried that before. How long this go-around until the guillotine comes back? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/49 "2011-04-11T06:23:03Z")
And the S & P 500 corporations pay taxes at a much lower rate than you and I do. Despite receiving 10 trillion plus in welfare in the 2008 meltdown. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/50 "2011-04-11T14:02:10Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > It’s of course possible to mitigate this: when you raise existing taxes, lower the income threshold for paying taxes, so that more people have to pay something. Or better yet, do away with the income tax completely and replace it with the Fair Tax. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/51 "2011-04-11T14:40:42Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Or better yet, do away with the income tax completely and replace it with the Fair Tax. The only problems with Fair Tax is that it a) doesn’t address corporate taxation so far as I can tell, and b) it’s got a sneaky loophole for the rich the same as the internet shopping boom has created for everyone–that is, if you can buy your luxury goods in a non-US market, you don’t pay US tax on them unless someone catches you doing it or you self-report. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/52 "2011-04-11T15:13:58Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > … How long this go-around until the guillotine comes back? It’s time for [_The Tumbrel Song_](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGM5z-ydQsg#t=2m30) again? Yeaaaaa, I know all the words! \*Don’t soil your pretty little shoes The gutter’s deep and red Climb up climb up and ride along with me the tumbrel driver said But she never said a word never turned her head Don’t soil your pretty little pants I only go one way Climb up climb up and ride along with me There’s no gold coach today But she never said a word never turned her head\* CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/53 "2011-04-11T15:34:45Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The only problems with Fair Tax is that it a) doesn’t address corporate taxation so far as I can tell, and b) it’s got a sneaky loophole for the rich the same as the internet shopping boom has created for everyone–that is, if you can buy your luxury goods in a non-US market, you don’t pay US tax on them unless someone catches you doing it or you self-report. Those are two of the _major_ problems. It also changes economic behavior by putting the entire tax base on retail; a lot of purchasing will be delayed or pushed underground. That’s not entirely a bad thing as we overmanufacture at present, but it means that the revenues will fail to meet projections, & some retailers will go out of business, & once we go into depression, we’ll have to do something else entirely. Not a permanent solution at all. And then there’s the niggling detail that it puts the most paperwork on people with the lowest incomes. The very rich can skate through life paying no taxes as we know them, rather just a retail markup. The very poor have to apply for a “prebate,” which involves proving that you a) exist, b) are “poor enough,” & c) haven’t already applied. Add to this d) whether the bureaucrat in charge accepts that you’re deserving, & e) the risk of your prebate getting lost in the mail, & the “Fair Tax” is possibly the worst tax proposal ever devised by persons over the age of 19. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/54 "2011-04-11T15:43:18Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > And the S & P 500 corporations pay taxes at a much lower rate than you and I do. Despite receiving 10 trillion plus in welfare in the 2008 meltdown. Here is a list of companies on the S & P 500 (you’ll be shocked to see it’s 500 companies) > **[List of S&P 500 companies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S&P_500_companies)** > > The S&P 500 is a stock market index maintained by S&P Dow Jones Indices. It comprises 503 common stocks which are issued by 500 large-cap companies traded on the American stock exchanges (including the 30 companies that compose the Dow Jones Industrial Average). The index includes about 80 percent of the American market by capitalization. It is weighted by free-float market capitalization, so more valuable companies account for relatively more weight in the index. The index constituents and the ... And here is a list of the companies that received TARP funds: [http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/tarp-chart.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/tarp-chart.htm) I’ll look it up if you want but I think Caterpillar paid over $200million in federal taxes for 2010, and over $40million to state. But that’s not really the point. They have over 100,000 employees. The US system is currently based on personal income taxes instead of corporate income taxes. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/55 "2011-04-11T15:45:25Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The only problems with Fair Tax is that it a) doesn’t address corporate taxation so far as I can tell, and b) it’s got a sneaky loophole for the rich the same as the internet shopping boom has created for everyone–that is, if you can buy your luxury goods in a non-US market, you don’t pay US tax on them unless someone catches you doing it or you self-report. It has reams of loopholes many slipped into large bills specifically targeting an area that will get a break the rest wont benefit from. GE has a staff of nearly 1,000 working their taxes. When taxes get more and more complicated. it is because the congress is creating more loopholes for some business to escape paying their share. A tax break for a company to ship jobs abroad, for instance Who benefits from that? Not the American people. But we have to pay more taxes as a result. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/56 "2011-04-11T16:04:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It has reams of loopholes many slipped into large bills specifically targeting an area that will get a break the rest wont benefit from. GE has a staff of nearly 1,000 working their taxes. > When taxes get more and more complicated. it is because the congress is creating more loopholes for some business to escape paying their share. > A tax break for a company to ship jobs abroad, for instance Who benefits from that? Not the American people. But we have to pay more taxes as a result. More loopholes means more accountants and lawyers meaning more jobs–it’s brilliant! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/57 "2011-04-11T16:06:13Z")
Uh, gonzo, we were talking about a proposed national sales tax that not even a GOP Congress is dumb enough to pass (yet). ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/58 "2011-04-11T16:54:20Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You can’t just assume people under 18 or over 65 are unemployed or not in the labor force. > > Based on the most recent BLS numbers which can be quickly found from their home page, the total number of people who are [Not in Labor Force] + [Unemployed] is 98 million or so, which is not = 50% of the population. ([cite](http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.a.htm)) What the 50% number includes is those people along with with currently employed workers who after filing, receive a full refund based on their individual filing particulars - the zero “effective” tax idea mentioned earlier. And BTW, 2011 is now projected to be the first time in history the number actualy EXCEEDS 50% - over half the population will pay no income tax. Yet the system is inherently unfair because the 10% of the income earners paying 70% of all income tax revenues are not paying enough to keep the poor downtrodden above the poverty line. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > II know he’s a home owner so he pays property tax, he owns two cars and I know his State requires you pay tax on those. WV has a 6% (I think 5% on food) sales tax. … Why do you bring up taxes equitably applied across all demographics in a discussion about income tax? > [@emacknight](#): > > The US system is currently based on personal income taxes instead of corporate income taxes. Exactly. This is why the Dem’s class warfare rhetoric has been so sucessful at creating the envy of dependency propping up their flawed fiscal and social ideas for decades. Now it’s “Tax and Spend until it becomes obvious we cannot keep getting away with it.” Then punt. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/59 "2011-04-11T17:46:36Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > What the 50% number includes is those people along with with currently employed workers who after filing, receive a full refund based on their individual filing particulars - the zero “effective” tax idea mentioned earlier. > > And BTW, 2011 is now projected to be the first time in history the number actualy EXCEEDS 50% - over half the population will pay no income tax. Yet the system is inherently unfair because the 10% of the income earners paying 70% of all income tax revenues are not paying enough to keep the poor downtrodden above the poverty line. Are you at all familiar with the idea of marginal value? I said this upthread, but it’s perfectly acceptable to have 10% of the income earners paying 70% of the taxes provided you believe taxes should be fair on approximate marginal value rather than on raw dollar value. Did you also miss the link that showed that the rich pay proportionally lower as a percentage of total dollar inflow when you factor in things like sales tax and capital gains tax? ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/60 "2011-04-11T18:08:10Z")
No, I’m not really famliar with any of this shit. :rolleyes: > [@Zeriel](#): > > Are you at all familiar with the idea of marginal value? Would it be akin to something like marginal logic, or marginal math? Or maybe one of those flawed fiscal ideas I alluded to making tax and government fiscal policy so massively unmanageable? > [@Zeriel](#): > > Did you also miss the link that showed that the rich pay proportionally lower as a percentage of total dollar inflow when you factor in things like sales tax and capital gains tax? No, I ignored it because factoring those things in a discussion about income tax is one of the negotiating tactics used to support the flawed premise this argument in the tax policy debate is based upon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775.md?page=4)