# Half the country (U.S.) doesn't pay taxes **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2011, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775 "2011-04-09T12:05:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/61 "2011-04-11T18:09:36Z")
Purple monkey washing machine! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/62 "2011-04-11T18:28:19Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > And BTW, 2011 is now projected to be the first time in history the number actualy EXCEEDS 50% - over half the population will pay no income tax. Think this might be a function of the ever widening wealth disparity? > [@](#): > > Yet the system is inherently unfair because the 10% of the income earners paying 70% of all income tax revenues are not paying enough to keep the poor downtrodden above the poverty line. If the wealthiest 10% earn and own a higher percentage of the country’s wealth than ever before, I would expect them to pay a higher percentage of the overall tax bill than ever before. Or, should the poor continue to pay their “fair share” even though they own less and less of the overall wealth (on a % basis) than they used to? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/63 "2011-04-11T18:34:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Are you really allowed to opt out? Growing up in Canada I was under the impression it was required and continued that thought when I moved to the US. > > I also thought the government used that money through out the year. > > It reminds me a lot of having escrow on a mortgage payment, for the longest time I thought it was required, asked around and found everyone I knew used it. Finally after some digging I learned I can opt out and then just pay the insurance and tax on my own, letting me hold the money instead of someone else. You can’t opt out. If you are going to pay income tax at the end of the year you need to withhold some reasonable percentage of that. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/64 "2011-04-11T18:35:49Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But that 15% goes to your retirement and health care after retirement. None of that goes to general government services. Not one dime of that pays for national defense, for example. Let’s hold you to that when you try and raid SS to pay down the deficit. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/65 "2011-04-11T18:47:40Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > No, I’m not really famliar with any of this shit. :rolleyes: > > Would it be akin to something like marginal logic, or marginal math? Or maybe one of those flawed fiscal ideas I alluded to making tax and government fiscal policy so massively unmanageable? So in other words, you’re too stupid or trollish to address my actual point, so you spout bullshit insults instead. Nice. Keep fuckin’ that chicken. It’s unarguable that if you base the idea of fairness on “proportion of raw dollars”, a flat tax is most fair. It’s equally unarguable that if you base the idea of fairness on “average marginal value of a dollar”, a highly progressive tax is most fair. Do you have something to add beyond idiocy? Perhaps a defense of your preferred value judgement? > [@](#): > > No, I ignored it because factoring those things in a discussion about income tax is one of the negotiating tactics used to support the flawed premise this argument in the tax policy debate is based upon. The OP says “taxes”, not “income taxes”. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/66 "2011-04-11T19:19:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Think this might be a function of the ever widening wealth disparity? > > If the wealthiest 10% earn and own a higher percentage of the country’s wealth than ever before, I would expect them to pay a higher percentage of the overall tax bill than ever before. Or, should the poor continue to pay their “fair share” even though they own less and less of the overall wealth (on a % basis) than they used to? In more than one previous thread, the right-wingers at SDMB used the increasing share of taxes paid by the super-rich as evidence against tax policy-induced inequality!! One might be tempted to start a BBQ Pit thread to train them on simple math; however (a) they have even bigger blind spots than this and (b) right-wingers are the very paradigm of [the Dunning-Kruger Effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) – they don’t need any teaching because they already know the correct answers! 😃 While I’m posting, > [@emacknight](#): > > More loopholes means more accountants and lawyers meaning more jobs–it’s brilliant! I also post snark sometimes, as an attempt at humor, or in hope that strong words help convey meaning, or, usually, both. But what was this, **emacknight**? It seems like a parody caricature of a particularly bitter and ignorant right-wing redneck. I do hope you at least got a laugh writing it. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/67 "2011-04-11T19:33:53Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > One might be tempted to start a BBQ Pit thread to train them on simple math;… How about a BBQ Pit thread on current events? What was that one old saying about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/68 "2011-04-11T20:32:16Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > What was that one old saying about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? You mean like cutting income taxes and expecting the deficit to go down? ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/69 "2011-04-11T20:55:51Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > You mean like cutting income taxes and expecting the deficit to go down? No, I was thinking spending more was causing the deficit to go up. So when was the last time your fantasy tax policy worked as expected: [http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/reagtxct.htm](http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/reagtxct.htm) “Incidentally, the claim that unrealistic supply side Reagan Administration revenue projections caused large budget deficits during the 1980s is false. Nonetheless, this false allegation is often used against current tax reform proposals. …The Reagan tax cuts, like similar measures enacted in the 1920s and 1960s, showed that reducing excessive tax rates stimulates growth, reduces tax avoidance, and can increase the amount and share of tax payments generated by the rich.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/70 "2011-04-11T21:14:09Z")
Are you saying nobody foresaw that the Bush tax cuts would increase the deficit? ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/71 "2011-04-11T21:23:28Z")
If my options are to earn so little as to not pay taxes or to pay more than my fair share, I will take the lifestyle to which I have become accustomed. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/72 "2011-04-11T21:25:22Z")
At least someone is admitting to “more than my fair share.” ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/73 "2011-04-11T21:47:19Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > No, I was thinking spending more was causing the deficit to go up. > > So when was the last time your fantasy tax policy worked as expected: > > [http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/reagtxct.htm](http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/reagtxct.htm) > > “Incidentally, the claim that unrealistic supply side Reagan Administration revenue projections caused large budget deficits during the 1980s is false. Nonetheless, this false allegation is often used against current tax reform proposals. …The Reagan tax cuts, like similar measures enacted in the 1920s and 1960s, showed that reducing excessive tax rates stimulates growth, reduces tax avoidance, and can increase the amount and share of tax payments generated by the rich.” You do realize that quoting a Republican economist’s take on Reagan Tax Cuts is hardly a neutral position? And I agree that Reagan helped drive up the National Debt, if that’s what you’re trying to claim. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/74 "2011-04-11T21:59:59Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > You do realize that quoting a Republican economist’s take on Reagan Tax Cuts is hardly a neutral position? > > And I agree that Reagan helped drive up the National Debt, if that’s what you’re trying to claim. Your mistake is assuming he’s trying to claim ANYTHING. Imagine Diogenes talking about anything involving teens and sex, or Der Trihs talking about abortion politics. Now imagine hitting them in the head with a sledgehammer. Now imagine the result talking about conservative politics. That’s Nadir. If you watch upthread, it’s quite charming how he ignores everything, including the context of a larger post, if it helps him spooge another talking point on to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/75 "2011-04-11T22:18:19Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > You do realize that quoting a Republican economist’s take on Reagan Tax Cuts is hardly a neutral position? When was the last time you saw anybody take a “neutral” position on a political topic, here or elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/76 "2011-04-11T22:36:00Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > No, I was thinking spending more was causing the deficit to go up. > > So when was the last time your fantasy tax policy worked as expected: > > [http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/reagtxct.htm](http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/reagtxct.htm) > > “Incidentally, the claim that unrealistic supply side Reagan Administration revenue projections caused large budget deficits during the 1980s is false. Nonetheless, this false allegation is often used against current tax reform proposals. …The Reagan tax cuts, like similar measures enacted in the 1920s and 1960s, showed that reducing excessive tax rates stimulates growth, reduces tax avoidance, and can increase the amount and share of tax payments generated by the rich.” Yeah, if the economy is growing anyway, letting the growth flow to a privileged class of already rich will increase the amount and share of the economy in the hands of the rich. This will tend to increase the share of tax payments paid by “the rich” because so much less income, & taxable income, will be in the hands of the rest of the populace. So not the point. We shouldn’t be taxing the wealthiest just to make ourselves feel more beholden to the wealthiest than to the masses. We should be taxing the wealthiest to deflate overinflated sectors of the economy. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/77 "2011-04-11T22:39:22Z")
I’m not sure what the point of that quote was, Nadir. Are you angry at Reagan for increasing “the amount and share of tax payments generated by the rich”? 'Cos I kind of am, too. I’m angry at Reagan for increasing the amount and share of taxable income collected by the rich, see. But then, my problem is with Reaganomics; I don’t know what you’re on about. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/78 "2011-04-11T23:24:32Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > When was the last time you saw anybody take a “neutral” position on a political topic, here or elsewhere? Do you think the executives of the Coca Cola Corporation extolling the virtues of New Coke is something worth listening to? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/79 "2011-04-12T05:01:15Z")
The top 400 richest people have the wealth equal to the bottom 125 million Americans. Can you figure out why they would pay a lot of the total amount of taxes? They have all the fucking money,Tthat is why. The poor are scrambling to eat and keep a roof over their heads. The rich have the money of the robber barons of the Guilded Age. Our wealth concentration is obscene, unAmerican and its continuation will result in big trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775/80 "2011-04-12T13:24:34Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The top 400 richest people have the wealth equal to the bottom 125 million Americans. Don’t you believe there may be some reason for that other than your economic perceptions of inequality? Hey look, I’m a poor person: “Waaa, waa, waa. I’m hungry and have roofing issues. Give me some money. Give me some of the rich people’s money. I demand it! It’s not fair!” Class warfare rhetoric bullshit. Grow up. Get a job. Save your money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/half-the-country-u-s-doesnt-pay-taxes/577775.md?page=5)