# HALP...explain the grammar **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 23, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071 "2010-04-23T02:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/1 "2010-04-23T02:19:02Z")
I am (trying to) explain on another board why the following is incorrect… To set the situation though, I received an SMS from a bank… “LOAN up to 4x you monthly salary” (as take a loan / borrow) I posted it on a board as an example of bad grammar, but now people are trying to say it is correct. Unfortunately, I don’t have the theoretical knowledge of english to explain clearly exactly why it is wrong. Can someone please help me out with the appropriate explanation? This is for people that are fluent in english, but speak it as a second langauge. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/2 "2010-04-23T02:32:13Z")
The “you” should be “your,” which is possessive. Very technically, there is no subject (You) and no verb (can get.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/3 "2010-04-23T02:35:02Z")
“To loan” in English is to be the giver of a loan; “to borrow” would be the parallel action by the recipient. A bank or lending company might “LOAN up to 4x you[r] monthly salary” – you the borrower would not. Think of it as a oarallel to “A teacher should **learn** his/her students their lessons”: he or she would teach; the students would (it is to be hoped) learn from the teaching. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/4 "2010-04-23T02:35:41Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > The “you” should be “your,” which is possessive. Very technically, there is no subject (You) and no verb (can get.) Huh? There is no you or your in the message… I know it would be correct if they said 1. Take a loan… 2. We can lend you… 3. Your loan can be up to… But the test just says … “Loan up to”… to me this means that they want me to lend to them…but in reality they want to lend to me. Can do I explain this to those that are telling me I am wrong? Sory I know little about verbs, prepositions, possessives and what have you… ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/5 "2010-04-23T02:38:53Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > “To loan” in English is to be the giver of a loan; “to borrow” would be the parallel action by the recipient. A bank or lending company might “LOAN up to 4x you[r] monthly salary” – you the borrower would not. > > Think of it as a oarallel to “A teacher should **learn** his/her students their lessons”: he or she would teach; the students would (it is to be hoped) learn from the teaching. Thanks Sir, This makes it as clear as can possibly be hoped! The dope is once again the saviour of all that is good and right. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/6 "2010-04-23T02:41:48Z")
If they are trying to get you to take a loan, the message would read: “You can get a loan up to 4 times your salary.” Or, possibly, “We will loan you up to 4 times your salary.” But **Polycarp’s** point is good. The bank loans. You borrow. Thus, the message could read “You can borrow up to 4 times your salary.” ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/7 "2010-04-23T02:50:33Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > If they are trying to get you to take a loan, the message would read: > > “You can get a loan up to 4 times your salary.” Or, possibly, “We will loan you up to 4 times your salary.” > > But **Polycarp’s** point is good. The bank loans. You borrow. Thus, the message could read “You can borrow up to 4 times your salary.” Yep…as the SMS is max 160 characters, I am trying to argue that if they simply replaced “loan” with “borrow” the entire message would be acceptable (at least within the confines of the character limit). But with simply “loan up to”…although its a bit inconclusive, the grammar is “off” - unless of course the bank really does want you to lend them your monthly salary… ---
**Author:** ![kapri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4491bb/32.png) [@kapri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kapri)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/8 "2010-04-23T03:14:36Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Huh? There is no you or your in the message… The message is: “LOAN up to 4x you monthly salary” Do you not see the “you” in there? That should be “your.” ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/9 "2010-04-23T03:23:12Z")
If I were composing the SMS message, it would say: “LOANS - up to 4x your monthly salary” It’s not a complete sentence, which is OK for texting. It’s just announcing a service/product. And that product is a _noun_, not a verb: LOANS. ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/10 "2010-04-23T03:25:01Z")
If “loan” is a noun, it’s not too bad a phrase. It wouldn’t be a sentence, but I don’t get the impression it’s supposed to be anyway. (Advertisements regularly use sentence fragments.) In any case, I read it as saying either: [We will] loan up to 4x your monthly salary, or [Get a] loan [valued at] up to 4x your monthly salary I don’t read it as an imperative sentence at all. If you do impose an imperative interpretation, then “loan” is the wrong word, but why do that? That’s presumably why I didn’t read it as an imperative in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/11 "2010-04-23T04:21:07Z")
> [@Pasta](#): > > If “loan” is a noun, it’s not too bad a phrase. It wouldn’t be a sentence, but I don’t get the impression it’s supposed to be anyway. (Advertisements regularly use sentence fragments.) In any case, I read it as saying either: > > [We will] loan up to 4x your monthly salary, or > [Get a] loan [valued at] up to 4x your monthly salary > > I don’t read it as an imperative sentence at all. If you do impose an imperative interpretation, then “loan” is the wrong word, but why do that? That’s presumably why I didn’t read it as an imperative in the first place. Yeah, my read on that sentence is loan is being used as a noun, not an imperative, but I prefer **CurtC** ’s version with a plural to the singular. The only definite error I see is the “you” which should be “your” in the message. I suspect this may be a typo by the OP, though. ---
**Author:** ![brujaja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@brujaja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brujaja)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/12 "2010-04-23T04:48:23Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Thanks Sir, > > This makes it as clear as can possibly be hoped! > > The dope is once again the saviour of all that is good and right. I’ve never seen **bengangmo’s** name on the boards before, but I **like** his or her attitude! ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/13 "2010-04-23T04:50:47Z")
I mean, I can loan up to four times my monthly salary, but that would be very bad for my savings and I’d have to, like, know you very well. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/14 "2010-04-23T09:13:43Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > I’ve never seen **bengangmo’s** name on the boards before, but I **like** his or her attitude! Hee…I has bin around… Or rather, I have been here for some time, and I am a he. Thanks I like the “Loans. Up to 4 x…” I have always taken loan as to mean “lend to” unless it is modified in some (eg: I will take a loan) It is common here to see a sentence like “can you fetch me to the airport” But sorry I don’t quite get all this noun, verb, imperative stuff - I am not “grammar literate” ☹ … yet I work in PR and Publishing (as a writer at times also) :smack: All I know is that I want the sentence to read BORROW up to 4x…Loan up to 4x just feels “icky” - and I am not beyond modifying the rules of grammar to makes me a point either. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/15 "2010-04-23T13:18:49Z")
I have this petty urge to make sure: Does the OP now see that the word “you” _does_ appear in the message s/he transcribed? Is that word in the original, or did the original say “your”? ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/16 "2010-04-23T13:52:40Z")
I’m cringing here- when I was in school, “loan” was a noun, and “lend” was a verb, and the teachers let no one forget it. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/17 "2010-04-23T19:38:38Z")
That’s not a bad point, actually, though the second definition for “loan” is as a transitive verb–probably reflecting usage in a descriptive linguistic sense. Lots of people have commented to me on their disdain for the practice of verbing nouns, but it’s probably unavoidable. The most popular one right now is the verb “to google.” ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/18 "2010-04-24T09:20:20Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > I’m cringing here- when I was in school, “loan” was a noun, and “lend” was a verb, and the teachers let no one forget it. They used to teach nouns and verbs at your school? At mine, we right-clicked if something was squiggly red and hit “ignore” if something was squiggly green. Seriously, though, [Dictionary.com (for what it’s worth) says](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loan): > [@](#): > > Sometimes mistakenly identified as an Americanism, loan as a verb meaning “to lend” has been used in English for nearly 800 years: Nearby villages loaned clothing and other supplies to the flood-ravaged town. The occasional objections to loan as a verb referring to things other than money, are comparatively recent. Loan is standard in all contexts but is perhaps most common in financial ones: The government has loaned money to farmers to purchase seed. He says, she says. Your teacher (or the dictionary, for that matter) does not have authority over the English language 🙂 Something is only grammatically flawed until enough people start doing it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/19 "2010-04-24T10:28:21Z")
I figured it was like the Hillbilly verb learn, as in, “I’m gonna learn you how to do this right.” Perhaps loan can have this opposite meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halp-explain-the-grammar/537071/20 "2010-04-24T12:23:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I figured it was like the Hillbilly verb learn, as in, “I’m gonna learn you how to do this right.” Perhaps loan can have this opposite meaning. \*\* taps **BigT** on shoulder, quietly points to post #3\*\*