# Hamas leader killed: Good policy for Israel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675 "2004-03-22T03:57:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/21 "2004-03-22T12:39:34Z")
So let me get this straight - an Israeli Attack helicopter fires an air-to-surface missile at Yassin as he’s being pushed down a busy street in his wheelchair. Seven innocent bystanders are also killed in the blast, and many others wounded. As much as I abhore the practice of assassination, couldn’t they have found a better way of doing this? If they wanted him dead, couldn’t they have just used a single sniper’s bullet rather than a missile that would undoubtedly cost innocent lives? Who the hell would have authorised such an attack anyway? Did they not realise that other would be blown to kingdom come, or did they just not care? **No-one Special** , so you feel that the loss of innocent Palestinian life is just " the price they have to pay"? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/22 "2004-03-22T12:43:22Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > I’d suggest the vast majority of Palestinians are looking for that too. I agree. I think the problem is with the extremes. I feel a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian “woman-in-the-street”. But I’m still selfish enough that, given the choice of choosing several random dead on one side or the other, I’ll choose to have it done to **them** every time. “1984” was not written in a vacuum (“Do it to Julia!”) - and I claim not to be any more of a grand hero than he was ☹ I am not a hero. I am not a moral crusader. I am not proud. I just want the terrorists **out** of my busses and pizza parlors. And if it takes innocent deaths on the Palestinian side to accomplish, then as awful as it is to say so, better them than us… Dani ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/23 "2004-03-22T12:51:27Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > I agree. I think the problem is with the extremes. I feel a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinian “woman-in-the-street”. But I’m still selfish enough that, given the choice of choosing several random dead on one side or the other, I’ll choose to have it done to **them** every time. > “1984” was not written in a vacuum (“Do it to Julia!”) - and I claim not to be any more of a grand hero than he was ☹ > > I am not a hero. > I am not a moral crusader. > I am not proud. > I just want the terrorists **out** of my busses and pizza parlors. > And if it takes innocent deaths on the Palestinian side to accomplish, then as awful as it is to say so, better them than us… > > Dani Well, I appreciate your honesty, but I don’t think innocent death on _either_ side is going to stop anything - it will only continue to incite more hatred and make the situation worse, surely you can see that? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/24 "2004-03-22T12:54:20Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > So let me get this straight - an Israeli Attack helicopter fires an air-to-surface missile at Yassin as he’s being pushed down a busy street in his wheelchair. Seven innocent bystanders are also killed in the blast, and many others wounded. > > As much as I abhore the practice of assassination, couldn’t they have found a better way of doing this? If they wanted him dead, couldn’t they have just used a single sniper’s bullet rather than a missile that would undoubtedly cost innocent lives? Who the hell would have authorised such an attack anyway? Did they not realise that other would be blown to kingdom come, or did they just not care? Yassin has been, I can only assume, an immediate target since the Ashdod bombing last week. I have no inside knowledge of the particulars of this case, but from cases in the past where details did become (privately) known to me, I can tell you the it is **not** easy to pin these guys down (case in point - OBL is still very much alive and on the loose). I’m assuming an opportunity presented itself to take Yassin out in a **relatively** clean manner (at least some of the dead were bodyguards) - and it was taken, despite the price. If we were to wait until we could get him with **no** bystanders anywhere near him, he would probably still be alive same time next year. > [@](#): > > **No-one Special** , so you feel that the loss of innocent Palestinian life is just " the price they have to pay"? I think my answer to TwistOfFate above pretty much covers my feelings… although you’ve managed to put it even more bluntly than I did… bottom line, as ugly as it is, if you want a simple yes/no answer, then my only honest answer to this is “yes”. IRL, of course, things are always more complicated than just “yes” and “no”… but I’ve already addressed the moral dilemma at quite some length in my previous posts. Dani ---
**Author:** ![nisosbar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@nisosbar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nisosbar)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/25 "2004-03-22T13:03:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The Palestinians will always hate us (there’s nothing we can do about that), but we can make sure that they don’t despise us. We’re going to leave Gaza, but we don’t want them to feel to good about it. This attitude, shared by too many Israelis, is precisely why peace will be difficult if not impossible to ever see happen there. It’s like saying, we’re too awful/bad/unlikeable to ever get along with, least of all to our enemies. Sad part about it is, prior to Sharon’s regime, there WAS an uneasy peace, even normalization within grasp. As to Yassin’s murder, in the short-term, there will be more terrorism. Long-term, I honestly don’t know. As I imply above, I believe the Israelis have bigger problems, like self-hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/26 "2004-03-22T13:07:56Z")
This is just one of the problems I have with the way Israel has conducted itself, in that they have continually shown a totally callous disregard for the innocent people that inevitably get killed as a result of their “targetted attacks”. Firing missiles into crowded streets is NOT an acceptable solution. It should not even have been considered as an option, but is not the first time it has happened. Remember when they fired missiles at a car which was stuck in a traffic jam in a busy street? One of the innocent bystanders killed in that attack was twelve years old. How is something like that ever acceptable? What does it say about Israelis if they feel something like that is perfectly okay as long as _they_ feel a little safer? How on earth are _your_ innocent lives any more valuable then theirs? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/27 "2004-03-22T13:28:57Z")
Saddam (false it turned out) attempting to assassinate Bush Sr. was widely touted as part of the reasons for Bush Jr. ousting Saddam. Attemptin to kill Bush Sr. is sign of a barbaric regime. Then when Israel kills a palestinian leader on a wheelchair with a missile its good ? ``` Politically the timing STUNK. The invasion of Iraq anniversary and worldwide protests against the US. Plus killing the guy returning on a wheelchair from prayers at the mosque. You might think terrorists are cowards... but they are cash strapped cowards then. Israelis are money laden cowards. ``` Long term everyone might be better off without this old wacko. It also shows Israel cares nothing about peace too. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/28 "2004-03-22T13:58:48Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > How on earth are _your_ innocent lives any more valuable then theirs? Objectively, they aren’t. However, being objective will get you killed in the real world, so I’m not objective. _Subjectively_, they’re more valuable to me because they’re mine. **nisobar** - saying “everybody hates me” doesn’t neccessarily imply self hatred. Sometimes, it just means that everybody’s an idiot. Israelis may suffer from a certain amount of basic Jewish guilt, but besides that, we’re pretty much OK with ourselves. **yojimbo** > [@](#): > > Good shooting. Thanks - it probably wasn’t an easy shot. (You want me to feel bad because he was in a whelchair? How discriminatory of you - the handi-capable have just as much right to be targeted as anyone elase. I bet you also think one shouldn’t hit a man in glasses). ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/29 "2004-03-22T14:11:05Z")
I’ve no sympathy for this guy at all. I’ve just read a bit about him and the world hasn’t really lost one of the good guys here but I do find myself in agreement with **Bibliovore**. If the guy is to be assassinated against international conventions then at least do it clean. All this does is further enrage an already piss-off people although I will concede that they don’t exactly need any more reasons from their POV and the fact that the bastard was killed is almost certainly enough to get them going. Both sides are continually reinforcing each others prejudice and hatred. Until both sides get tired of killing and are willing to accept the occasional atrocity by the lunatic fringe this will never end and I can’t see that happening for a loooonnnngggg time. Maybe an act of unimaginable horror may change things quickly but that is not something to wish for. Very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/30 "2004-03-22T14:33:48Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > How on earth are _your_ innocent lives any more valuable then theirs? How on earth is your best friend’s life more important to you than some poor unnamed sod in Rwanda or Kosovo? It isn’t, **objectively**. But It’s **My** friends and **My** family. I am **not** Objective. Can’t afford it. Dani ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/31 "2004-03-22T14:35:53Z")
Thanks, **yojimbo**. I believe that assassination should not be considered an acceptable political tool by any nation claiming to be a civilised democracy. Not only is it counter-productive, but it also makes a mockery of any claim to the moral high ground. However, I am not naive enough to believe that it will be abandoned any time in the near future, because it is far more expedient to simply murder someone like Yassin rather than go to the trouble of arresting him and putting him on trial. This attack was not only irresponsible and stupid, it also showed that the Israeli Authorities share the same attitude to Palestinian innocents as **Noonespecial** and **Alessan**. Apparently, they only matter if it’s convenient, right? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/32 "2004-03-22T14:38:25Z")
No question that the Israeli public like to see Sharon waving his cock around so I guess this is designed to boost his personal popularity at a particularly difficult time (the planned withdrawal) – the guy was an easy target Sharon could take out whenever he wanted (5.00am praying routine every morning at the same place). Why now ? So it seems this action boosts Sharon and by inference the general policy, which, in turn, boosts the numbers eager to become martyrs/suicide bombers and the cycle of hatred goes up yet another notch. How many Israelis will die in the next seven days so that Sharon got that personal boost in the ratings he craved, 50, maybe 100 ? > [@Alessan](#): > > Objectively, they aren’t. However, being objective will get you killed in the real world, so I’m not objective. _Subjectively_, they’re more valuable to me because they’re mine. Since when was it about “objective” and “subjective”; Jews lives are more important than others according to the religion itself. At least that’s what **december** taught us repeatedly and no one objected to his view then. Jewish lives are more important than any other, right ? ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/33 "2004-03-22T14:43:20Z")
> [@Noone Special](#): > > How on earth is your best friend’s life more important to you than some poor unnamed sod in Rwanda or Kosovo? It isn’t, **objectively**. But It’s **My** friends and **My** family. I am **not** Objective. Can’t afford it. > > Dani And one could therefore say that _subjectively_, the Palestinians feel that their innocent lives are worth more than yours, because it’s _their_ friends and _their_ family. And round and round we go, ad nauseam. See what I mean? Unless Israel stops taking this callous attitude and makes the conscious and deliberate decision to avoid unnecessary loss of innocent life, it will continue to lose the respect and sympathy of the international community, and will only draw more sympathy to the Palestinian cause. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/34 "2004-03-22T15:03:15Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > And one could therefore say that _subjectively_, the Palestinians feel that their innocent lives are worth more than yours, because it’s _their_ friends and _their_ family. And round and round we go, ad nauseam. I don’t doubt for one minute that this is true. And they are **right** to feel so about their own. But right now **we** are busy trying to maximize our chances to survive our next foray to the Supermarket. > [@](#): > > See what I mean? Unless Israel stops taking this callous attitude and makes the conscious and deliberate decision to avoid unnecessary loss of innocent life, it will continue to lose the respect and sympathy of the international community, and will only draw more sympathy to the Palestinian cause. I’m confused. Why do Israeli actions lose us respect in the Int’l community (OK - this far I get it, actually), while far **worse** attrocities by the Palestinian side don’t seem to have the same effect going the other way? I mean, reading your post above, I picture you weighing the relative attrocities and deciding which side merits more of your sympathy based on that… and you choose to sympathize with the Palestinians 😕 OK, your choice. Oh, and if steps **weren’t** taken by the IDF to at least lessen unnecessary loss of innocent lives, many more terrorist leaders would have already been eliminated, but at what I completely agree would be an unbearable cost in innocent lives. As it is, I am not happy with the consequences. I just feel that I have to live with it. It’s - well - it’s kind of like a war out there. Kill or be killed. I don’t **want** any innocents dying, on either side. But, by whatever force you believe in, if innocents are to die I prefer that they **not** be my friends and family, but somebody elses’. Sorry, I am no more than an ordinary, self-centered, human being. Dani ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/35 "2004-03-22T18:35:34Z")
[http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/mediaobjectivity/Sheikh\_Yassins\_Happiest\_Day.asp](http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/mediaobjectivity/Sheikh_Yassins_Happiest_Day.asp) > [@](#): > > The absent Israeli position: Though terrorist efforts may increase temporarily, in the long run the elimination of Yassin will upset Hamas’ leadership and violent capabilities, and serve as an essential deterrent to ongoing Palestinian terror. As Israeli spokesman Avi Pazner said: > His elimination will serve peace in the long run. He is personally responsible for all the most dreadful attacks in Israel. He was a dangerous extremist Islamic ideologist. He was danger to the entire region. By eliminating this threat to peace we will improve chances for a better Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/36 "2004-03-22T18:49:28Z")
A tactical mistake IMHO. If you’re going to insist on assassinating Hamas leadership ( and I won’t argue the rightness or wrongness of that tactic - I believe there are valid arguments on both sides ), assassinate people that will make a difference - those whose loss will compromise Hamas ’ operational effectiveness and decrease cohesion. Yassin wasn’t an operations chief, but a religious ideologue. Once he got the ball rolling, he had already done about as much damage as he was going to do. The only function he was currently served was as a symbol and exhorter of the faithful. Making him a martyr likely just increased his effectiveness as both ( and that includes the long term - he dies of old age and he ceases to actively exhort - die as a martyr and you are inspiring for generations ). His death will have zero impact on operational effectiveness and will most likely _increase_ cohesion. Never mind that hitting a old man in a wheelchair ( no matter how evil ) and taking out a number of civilian bystanders at the same time is yet another media black eye and great bit of recruiting propaganda for Hamas. I also disagree with Israeli operational tactics, but I’ve argued that issue before. MHO, for what it’s worth. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/37 "2004-03-22T18:57:38Z")
> [@London\_Calling](#): > > Since when was it about “objective” and “subjective”; Jews lives are more important than others according to the religion itself. At least that’s what **december** taught us repeatedly and no one objected to his view then. > > Jewish lives are more important than any other, right ? This is truly a disgraceful post. The man was saying that _his_ life was, to him, more important than some random strangers’. If you are saying that Judaism teaches that Jewish lives are more important than others, you are wrong - but the point is quite irrelevant. Other than to expose your hatred of Jews. Which is relevant, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/38 "2004-03-22T19:21:57Z")
“This is truly a disgraceful post” 😃 Yeah, right. Truly disgraceful. Does that mean you don’t want to answer the question, or don’t know the answer? ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/39 "2004-03-22T19:24:21Z")
As I understand it, the game plan is thus: 1. Sharon takes out Yassin 2. Moderately almighty reaction violence from Palestinians… 3. …enough to give Sharon an excuse for all-out war, and trying to get Big Brother Bush to provide troops etc to basically drive the Palestinians into the dust The sooner Israelis elect a leader, not a monster, both countries might have some chance of a future. ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675/40 "2004-03-22T19:49:06Z")
> [@istara](#): > > As I understand it, the game plan is thus: > > 1. Sharon takes out Yassin > 2. Moderately almighty reaction violence from Palestinians… > 3. …enough to give Sharon an excuse for all-out war, and trying to get Big Brother Bush to provide troops etc to basically drive the Palestinians into the dust > > The sooner Israelis elect a leader, not a monster, both countries might have some chance of a future. Yeah right. Things were peachy for the last 50 years & Sharon had to come along and ruin the party. Do you also think Arafat has actually been good for the peace process? Sharon could not have picked a better campaign manager than Arafat last election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-leader-killed-good-policy-for-israel/235675.md?page=3)