# Hamas wins **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687 "2006-01-26T13:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/221 "2006-01-30T18:13:08Z")
> [@UselessGit](#): > > I should certainly hope not (To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly), :dubious: Cite? I studied under several rabbis for quite a few years and never, ever, ever heard anything like what you’re suggesting. > [@UselessGit](#): > > but the Jews are in Palestine because they have a “divine right” to be there, a right given to them by God, apparently. All of them? Even the large percentage of **secular** Israelis? > [@UselessGit](#): > > … I am so in over my head here in GD. Sorry. Providing cites for your claims would be a good place to start. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/222 "2006-01-30T18:14:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t think this accurately reflects Gandhi’s views, and I’d like to see a cite from Gandhi’s writings if it’s to be supported. It is what I’d heard, but I couldn’t find a cite, so take it for what it’s worth. In the long run, Gandhi believed, nonviolent resistance always works because violent oppressors simply can’t sustain their control of unwilling subjects indefinitely. [/QUOTE] Actually, Gandhi is wrong in this. Hitler could have made more ovens and sorted the problem out once and for all. That is why what will work for one society will not work in another. It depends what society you place Israel in. IMO, Israel would stop shooting if the Palestinians did the same and would be more than willing to negotiate a reasonable settlement that both sides could live with. Unfortunately, if one side wants the other destroyed then it makes negotiations difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/223 "2006-01-30T18:23:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes it is. So I guess my question would be, “Is there anyone that the Palestinians could elect to lead them that you’d be happy with and wouldn’t villify?” I’m not villifying anyone. But, if you choose to elect terrorists as your representatives then you should not be surprised that others no longer wish to talk to you, or send you money, or sympathize with your plight. Look, if you elected someone who went out and acted in a manner that you had no, or little, idea they would then you have a reason to be upset and you shouldn’t be blamed (help responsible) for that choice. But if you elect someone knowing full well what they stand for, then you have no one to blame but yourself for the fallout. The talk now is that they could lose hundreds of millions of dollars of aid from the EU, UN, and the US. I feel for them, but it’s not as if you needed to be Mohammed to figure this out beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/224 "2006-01-30T18:31:01Z")
> [@UselessGit](#): > > Let’s try the Talmud on for size–it would hardly be fair to just qoute the bad stuff from the Quaran Almost all of those “quotes” are total inventions and not found in the Talmud. The rest are misquotings and taken so far out of context that they have totally twisted their meanings. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/225 "2006-01-30T19:09:21Z")
It’s also worth pointing out that there is hardly a unified religious set of beliefs within most sects of Judaism, let alone between sects. The idea that, for example, Reform Jews would approach Israel from the same religious perspective as Ultraorthodox Jews is laughable… if you know anything about Judaism, that is. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/226 "2006-01-30T19:10:59Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m not villifying anyone. But, if you choose to elect terrorists as your representatives then you should not be surprised that others no longer wish to talk to you, or send you money, or sympathize with your plight. Look, if you elected someone who went out and acted in a manner that you had no, or little, idea they would then you have a reason to be upset and you shouldn’t be blamed (help responsible) for that choice. But if you elect someone knowing full well what they stand for, then you have no one to blame but yourself for the fallout. The talk now is that they could lose hundreds of millions of dollars of aid from the EU, UN, and the US. I feel for them, but it’s not as if you needed to be Mohammed to figure this out beforehand. Ok, let me rephrase. Is there any group that currently exists, that the Palestinians could elect that you would not consider a terrorist organization? Erek ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/227 "2006-01-30T23:42:52Z")
Useless Git: The set of “Jewish laws” you have posted is lifted straight from white power and anti-Semitic literature. _Including the order._ I can’t find any of these almost definitely false “laws” on any other site besides racist or white-power sites. Therefore I am calling you on this. Prove to me, **Useless Git,** that these come from the actual Talmud (by linking to an actual online Talmud translation, not a racist site,) and I will believe you. Until then, you’re a liar. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/228 "2006-01-31T00:20:04Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > Useless Git: > > The set of “Jewish laws” you have posted is lifted straight from white power and anti-Semitic literature. > > _Including the order._ > > I can’t find any of these almost definitely false “laws” on any other site besides racist or white-power sites. Therefore I am calling you on this. Prove to me, **Useless Git,** that these come from the actual Talmud (by linking to an actual online Talmud translation, not a racist site,) and I will believe you. > > Until then, you’re a liar. I think he is, the people in this site already dealt with this anti-Semite glurge: [http://www.daveneta.com/no-random-act/cracks.htm](http://www.daveneta.com/no-random-act/cracks.htm) > [@](#): > > The World Church of the Creator’s pamphlet, “Facts that the Government and Media Don’t Want You to Know” by Matt Hale, includes many vitriolic attacks on all nonwhites, but a major portion is directed against the Jews, Judaism, and especially the Talmud. Hale says in his introduction, “The following are shocking but exact quotes from the various books of the Talmud.” If they were true, they would be shocking, but far more shocking is how WCOTC distorted them to their own ends. These false charges are not original work by Hale, they have been recycled again and again. An Internet search turned up over three-dozen sites with very similar disinformation. Therefore, we solicited the following critique of the charges from a Jewish scholar at the Anti-Defamation League of B’NAI B’RITH. (We have honored his way of writing God as G-d even when quoting Hale, though Hale, of course, did not use that form.) > > * * * > > Although the quotations cited are supposed to be from the Talmud, many are actually from other works, most notably the “Shulchan Aruch” which was written about a thousand years after the Talmud. > > … > > Part A: Quotations that are complete fabrications. > > Sanhedrin 59a: “Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal.” > > This simply does not exist, not in 59b either, or anywhere else for that matter. Even taking the wildest distortions into account, it still doesn’t exist. > > Tosefta Aboda Zara 13, 5: “If a goy kills a goy or a Jew he is responsible, but if a Jew kills a goy he is not responsible.” > > Pure fabrication. In fact the Tosefta of Avodah Zarah in section B only goes as high as number 3; there is no number 5 at all. > > Tosefta Abda Zara VIII, 5: “How to interpret the word ‘robbery.’ A goy is forbidden to steal, rob or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy.” > > Again, this does not exist. The Tosefta at this point is discusses an entirely different matter. > > Shulchan Aruch Choszen Hamiszpat 348: “All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation which consequently is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples.” > > No such statement in that section or any other section of the Shulchan Aruch. Lots more in the link, and to counteract that silliness from the believers of that “world church” here are some real Talmud quotes on Gentiles: > [@](#): > > On Gentiles > > Avot 3:18 “All of Mankind is beloved, because it was created in the image of G-d.” > > Avot 3:18 "An even greater love was shown to man by informing him that he was created in the image of G-d, as it is written “in the image of G-d He made man.” > > Tosefta Sanhedrin 13: “Righteous Gentiles are destined for the World to Come.” [27] > > Tana Dvei Eliyahu[28] 10: “Let heaven and earth testify, that whether Jew or Gentile, man or woman, each person according to their actions, will they be graced by Divine spirit and inspiration.” Really **Useless Git** , check the end of the movie _Shindler’s list_, if there was any truth to what you posted, Oskar Schindler would never had been honored that way. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/229 "2006-01-31T00:44:49Z")
And who is the World Church of the Creator? They changed their name, but they still remain a white supremacist group. Mmm, add anti-Semitism, and they do look like Nazis, talk like nazis… but they don’t goose-step, so I guess they are not :dubious: They are now called now the Creativity Movement: [http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext\_US/WCOTC.asp?xpicked=3&item=17](http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/WCOTC.asp?xpicked=3&item=17) > [@](#): > > The Creativity Movement was one of the most notorious hate groups in the 1990s, gaining publicity for its rapid growth and the violent incidents with which it was associated. Originally founded by Ben Klassen in 1973 as Church of the Creator, the organization fell into disarray in the mid-1990s following the criminal convictions of several of its members, the suicide of Klassen in 1993 and a successful lawsuit brought by the family of a Gulf War veteran murdered in 1991 by a COTC member. In 1996, COTC was reborn as WCOTC with the emergence of the young law school graduate Matt Hale as its leader. Hale’s publicity skills, his unsuccessful battle to obtain his law license in Illinois, and a two-state shooting spree by follower Benjamin Smith in July 1999 that left two dead and nine wounded, all kept the WCOTC in the headlines in recent years. In November 2002, the WCOTC lost a copyright infringement lawsuit brought against it by the Te-Ta-Ma Truth Foundation, which had successfully trademarked the name “Church of the Creator” years ago. A federal judge ordered the WCOTC to stop using its name, to give up its Web addresses, and to turn over all printed material bearing its name. Hale refused to comply with the order and in January 2003 had arrived for a contempt of court hearing when he was arrested for soliciting the judge’s murder. He remains in jail awaiting trial as members of the WCOTC and other white supremacist groups rally behind him. Currently, Thomas Kroenke, appointed “Hasta Primus” or “Spearhead” of the WCOTC before Hale’s arrest, is running some of the group’s operations in Wyoming. > > UPDATE: Matt Hale receives 40-year prison sentence. (4/6/05) **Useless Git** : I if I had used such a rotten source for a cite, I would take a shower. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/230 "2006-01-31T00:59:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Poor form. Instead of debating the facts presented you fall back on an ad hominem fallacy? There is no _ad hominem_ in my post–unlike your claim that I am using _ad hominem_. I pointed out that your sources were continuing a myth, making no observation that you were deliberately in error or deficient in your presentation. Your tendency to go personal throughout this thread, however, is not helping you make your points. You also keep conflating issues in ways that make it look like you are simply throwing posts at the thread, for example: in response to my post regarding the aftermath of the Deir Yassin massacre, you posted > [@](#): > > What are you talking about “did nothing”? Is that like the 40,000 refugees absorbed who were ‘nothing’ too? And how can you claim it’s a myth if it happened? That’s just surreal. The phrase “did nothing” was, in context, clearly a statement regarding the Israeli efforts to persuade the Arabs to not flee their homes in the face of apparent Israeli brutality–instead, they welcomed the panic. The 40,000 refugees being permitted to return over the course of the next 20 years has absolutely nothing to do with the actions of the Israelis _at that time_ who were quite happy to see the Arabs fleeing in the face of apparent brutality–as noted by Menachim Begin and David Ben Gurion, among others. You have no reason to post that except to cloud the issue. As to the crux of our dispute about the flight of Arabs: In the first half year of the war, (November 1947 - April, 1948) approximately 60,000 Arabs appear to have fled the country. Many were from the city of Haifa where particular conditions resulted in wealthy Arabs fleeing in a way that induced a panic flight by nearly all who could manage it just before the outbreak of hostilities. Over the next six months, there was a small steady flow of refugees from areas threatened by direct combat, prior to Deir Yassin. In the month following Deir Yassin, prompted by fears that the massacre would be repeated, (and with no evidence that they were lured away by Arab state promises), over 300,000 fled their homes for Arab controlled lands. In July, when the towns of Lydda and Ramle were captured, between 50,000 and 60,000 Arabs were forced out of their homes and similar events happened on a smaller scale throughout the campaign. (The 350,000+ inspired by Deir yassin or directly moved from Lydda and Ramle account for half of the estimated refugees without involving a single Arab statement.) Later, when the Haganah was about to capture the city of Haifa, Arab leaders told the remaining civilians in that city to flee in preparation for the particular battle over that city. While setting terms of surrender that the Arabs declined, the Jewish leaders did attempt to persuade the Arabs of that city to stay put, on the grounds that the battle would not be fought in the city. This incident appears to be the source of nearly every claim that the Arab leaders told people to get out and return when the Jews had been destroyed or that Jews pleaded with them to stay. Sources for this information include Simha Flapan’s The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, Pantheon, 1987, and Benny Morris’s The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Cambridge University Press, 1987. As to the “strategic” nature of Deir Yassin, aside from its value in frightening the Arab populace, [it had none, being a declared neutral sister village to the Jewish occupied Givat Shaul](http://ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/231 "2006-01-31T03:13:55Z")
The “Talmud Quotes” that **Useless Git** posted are either outright fabrications or completely misread the meaning of the text. For example, the quotes from Libbre David, Baba Necia, Schabouth Hag. 6d, Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17, Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D and Gad. Shas. 2:2 are outright fabrications as no such books exist. Midrasch Talpioth is an obscure 18th century Kabbalistic work that has no authority whatsoever and it is doubtful that even one in two hundred Orthodox Jews would know that it exists. I also doubt you’d find a copy in any Judaic bookstore today. In addition, the quote is probably a fabrication as the name of God used in the quote is not one that Jews would use. The rest of the quotes are either purposely mistranslated or take the statement severely out of context. For example, take the quote from Avoda Zara which (supposedly) states: “A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated.” In fact, it says no such thing. The context of the discussion there concerns certain bodily discharges that render a person _tamei_ (ritually unclean). The general rule in Jewish Law is that intercourse with a girl under three years old is not considered intercourse with all the ramifications that are attendant upon it. For instance, if a person were to (God forbid) rape a girl under three, she would still be considered a virgin in Jewish law. The law in Leviticus states that a woman who experiences a discharge is tamei for a period of at least seven days. This law applies to Jewish women and non-Jewish women. However, such a discharge can only counts from when a girl is three years old - a similar discharge at a younger age does not render a girl tamei, since she her intercourse prior to that is not considered an intercourse. This state of tumah (ritual impurity) can then be passed to other people and foodstuffs via contact. The topic of the discussion at hand is whether gentile children have this impurity. The general rule is that since they are “eligible” for this type of tumah at that age, that they may have it. Please note that these rules are moot in our post-Temple period and has no bearing on any non-Jews today. But it in no way states that Jews have permission to rape three year old girls. That’s just patently false as (despite the false quote from Gad Shas), it is forbidden for a Jew to have sexual relations with a non-Jew - period. As for the others, they simply don’t exist; For example the quote from Avoda Zara 26 (“The best of the gentiles should be killed”) does not exist (although the page and work do); or twist the meaning completely away from the context of the statement. A fellow in Australia named David Maddison set up a [site](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/8815/index.html) to combat these “quotes” and other antisemitic literature out there. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/232 "2006-01-31T03:25:37Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Ok, let me rephrase. Is there any group that currently exists, that the Palestinians could elect that you would not consider a terrorist organization? > > Erek I don’t know enough about Palestinian politics to comment on whether there was a party who ran in the election that would be considered not a terrorist organization. If there isn’t what does that say about Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/233 "2006-01-31T03:28:11Z")
> [@UselessGit](#): > > … I am so in over my head here in GD. Sorry. This seems to be true. If you really want to examine your quotes, you might want to open a separate thread on them in **GQ** (although it might bounce back here pretty quickly)–they really are false. If you want to _defend_ those quotes, open a separate thread either here or in the **Pit** , but be prepared to be grilled thoroughly. I am not sure where you stumbled across them, but I can assure you that the vast majority of them are anti-semitic inventions and the few that resemble actual quotations have been distorted or ripped from their context. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/234 "2006-01-31T03:35:40Z")
**Tom** , I’ll respond to your post in the detail it deserves, but it’ll take me some time. For the rest of the folks in this thread: I was just talking with my girlfriend who made me aware that there have now been recent statements by memebers of Hamas, as relayed by NPR, stating that they are no longer interested in violence and that they want peace. No cite at present, but I will try to dig one up tonight and tomorrow. If this is true, it presents a picture of division within Hamas’ ranks and a chance of negotiating with a faction that has already renounced terrorism. Curiouser and curiouser. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/235 "2006-01-31T06:01:29Z")
**Tom** and any others interested in a fairly objective history of those early days: Here is a [good review of the origins of the refugee issues](http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm) which documents the lack of sainthood by either side. In short, there was indeed encouragement to leave from Arab leaders and by the previous departure of leadership, and there were actions taken by individual Jewish groups that encouraged the flight. And again that there is no doubt that roughly equal numbers of Jews were forcibly dispossesed from Arab territories. And [here](http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#The%20British%20Mandate) is a concise history of the region. In short, the British mandate of Palestine originally also included what is now Jordan but that was soon made into a seperate Arab country. For the remainder the British desired to create “self-governing institutions in Palestine, as required by the mandate. The Jews were alarmed by the prospect of such institutions, which would have an Arab majority. However, the Arabs would not accept proposals for such institutions if they included any Jews at all, and so no institutions were created.” From the 1920s on various massacers against the Jews became the norm. Certainly the excuse was the percieved fear of dispossession, as **Tom** allows, but “economic, population and other indicators suggest that objectively, the Arabs of Palestine benefited from the Mandate and Zionist investment. Arab standard of living increased faster in Palestine than other areas, and population grew prodigiously throughout the Mandate years.” In the 30’s Jewish return from Europe increased and this was met with widespread rioting called “The Arab Revolt” which was spearheaded by an Arab family desirous of personal power. They killed both Jews and Arabs who got in their way. Jewish responses included “both defensive measures, and … random terror and bombings of Arab civilian targets, perpetrated by the Irgun (Irgun Tsvai Leumi or “Etsel,”). Etsel was the military underground of the right-wing dissident “revisionist group” headed first by Vladimir (Ze’ev) Jabotinsky, who seceded from the Zionist movement, and later by Menahem Begin.” It goes on and is a good fairly balanced/objective read. Neither side was full of saints. What can be said consistently is that Palestinian best interests would have been best served by compromise at virtually every step of the way. In retrospect, every possible opportunity for peace that was passed by by the Arab side would have given the Palestinians situations that today would be called victories. Now can we get back to current events? **Finn** , Hamas is clearly willing to continue peace for now. They are unwilling to renounce it for all time or to state that their long term goal of ridding Palestine of the Jews has changed … peace for now is a short term tactic according to press releases. Bluster away, so long as you actually keep to the Roadmap and to providing security in actuality. Call Israel’s forthcoming unilateral disengagement (if it comes to that) a victory for Hamas if you like. Just deliver the security and calm and maybe eventually pragmatism will win out. I am encouraged by the moderate responses made by the quartet today, creating that golden bridge for Hamas, and by floats of pragmatism by Hamas officials. Even Rice did not rule out humanitarian aid finding its way through non-Hamas channels. But speaking of Rice … what is up with that this was unexpected stuff. Is that a Bush administration theme to not prepare for any eventuality other than the one you hope for? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/236 "2006-01-31T15:55:56Z")
Here’s a recent article that outlines Hamas’ position. [We will not sell our people or principles for foreign aid.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1698420,00.html) > [@](#): > > … > Our message to the Palestinians is this: our people are not only those who live under siege in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip but also the millions languishing in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria and the millions spread around the world unable to return home. We promise you that nothing in the world will deter us from pursuing our goal of liberation and return. > … ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/237 "2006-01-31T18:18:50Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I don’t know enough about Palestinian politics to comment on whether there was a party who ran in the election that would be considered not a terrorist organization. If there isn’t what does that say about Palestinians? That they had their land stolen from them by the British, given to the Israelis, and have been rounded up into open prisons called “refugee camps”, and they feel they have no other way to gain their own sovereignty. They didn’t want an Israeli state formed on their land before 1948, and they still feel cheated by the western nations that formed one despite their protestations. That’s what it says to me at least. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/238 "2006-01-31T18:23:27Z")
**Tom** , actually, before I leave the historical background entirely, I’d like to disabuse you of another myth that you seem to have accepted (given your Native American analogy). There is no evidence that Palestine had been an ancestral home for generations for many Arabs who were then displaced by Zionists than there is that Palestine was devoid of Arabs before Jews returned. Real numbers are not available but a critical discussion and evaluation of these [pre 1948 population numbers](http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm) is available. > [@](#): > > Major Conclusions > > 1. The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times, and the relative contributions of natural increase and immigration, imprecision in the counts and other issues. > > 2. Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began. The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893. A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine. in the 1890s. At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development. Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid. > > 3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by subdistricts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/239 "2006-01-31T18:35:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That they had their land stolen from them by the British, given to the Israelis, and have been rounded up into open prisons called “refugee camps”, and they feel they have no other way to gain their own sovereignty. They didn’t want an Israeli state formed on their land before 1948, and they still feel cheated by the western nations that formed one despite their protestations. > > That’s what it says to me at least. I remember a report on a Native Indian band on the east coast of Canada. It showed the utter poverty that they lived in. There was no plumbing and people had taken to using the windows as a toilet. The band wanted the government to move them to a new site where things would be better. I remember distinctly them showing a bucket of filthy water. Right next to the bucket was a mop and a broom. What is said to me is that they expected someone else to pick up that mop and broom. The problem with the plumbing was that it wasn’t buried deep enough to stop from freezing. It seems that seeing there was no employment there, that someone could spend the time to dig the plumbing deeper. They expected someone else to do it for them. My point is that if you live in a refugee camp for decades, not for months, but **decades** , it no longer is a camp but your home. If you still think of it as a camp it is because you haven’t done what is necessary to change things for the better. Blowing up your neighbors won’t help. It just shows you expect someone else to do things for you instead of doing it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/240 "2006-01-31T18:42:31Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I remember a report on a Native Indian band on the east coast of Canada. It showed the utter poverty that they lived in. There was no plumbing and people had taken to using the windows as a toilet. The band wanted the government to move them to a new site where things would be better. I remember distinctly them showing a bucket of filthy water. Right next to the bucket was a mop and a broom. What is said to me is that they expected someone else to pick up that mop and broom. The problem with the plumbing was that it wasn’t buried deep enough to stop from freezing. It seems that seeing there was no employment there, that someone could spend the time to dig the plumbing deeper. They expected someone else to do it for them. > > My point is that if you live in a refugee camp for decades, not for months, but **decades** , it no longer is a camp but your home. If you still think of it as a camp it is because you haven’t done what is necessary to change things for the better. Blowing up your neighbors won’t help. It just shows you expect someone else to do things for you instead of doing it yourself. I understand what you are saying. I agree with that sentiment as well, I’m not making the argument that the Palestinians are blameless. I am only making the point that neither side is right or wrong, they both just have what they want and what they want conflicts. However, Israel has been trashing infrastructure, building settlements in between the cracks between camps and some Palestinian refugee camps are isolated from one another and it’s difficult to get from one to the other like from Gaza to the West Bank. And to bring it back to the topic, Hamas is one of those few organizations that actually has been doing it themselves, they’ve been building that infrastructure. One day these people will wake up to globalisation and realize taht the whole idea of nations is becoming increasingly nebulous as economic interests traverse the vast global network. However, you can’t expect someone isolated in a refugee camp to understand this concept. But rather than realize it we very well might fight Armageddon over these issues, which I think would be very unfortunate. So I’d rather trust Hamas for the ten years, and see where it leads, a lot can change in 10 years, especially if people start to be more content. Erek [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687.md?page=13)