# Hamas wins **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687 "2006-01-26T13:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/61 "2006-01-26T22:21:42Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Neither side had it. It was under British rule at the time. The Palestinians never had an independent state there that was taken away by the Zionists. This seems a little disingenuous. The Palestinians (a great many of them, at least) were displaced from their land and livelihoods. They might not have been independent under British or Ottoman rule, but there was certainly something that they had that was taken from them by the Zionists. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/62 "2006-01-26T23:01:54Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > This seems a little disingenuous. The Palestinians (a great many of them, at least) were displaced from their land and livelihoods. They might not have been independent under British or Ottoman rule, but there was certainly something that they had that was taken from them by the Zionists. For an accurate view of the conflict and its consequences, go [here.](http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/63 "2006-01-27T03:14:26Z")
I vaguely remember reading CNN news analysis as far back as a year or two ago that said what several posters have written here: Hamas is popular in Palestine because they’re able to provide basic community services that the government is not, and if that popularity results in votes, they will have to become more moderate because they will finally be accountable to someone. I can only hope that’s what happens. The reasoning seems perfectly logical, but it’s Israel/Palestine. I’m not sure I think the removal of Fatah is a “missed opportunity.” They didn’t seem to be moving things forward that much; I felt they were largely impotent in the last few yeares and Israel was forced to make “painful concessions” (in Sharon’s words). That was what was moving things forward, from my perspective. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/64 "2006-01-27T03:32:10Z")
Hamas won the election, plain and simple. We (the U.S.,) make a lot of noise about freedom and elections and democracy. Now that someone “we” didn’t want has won, it’s time to put up or shut up. We either talk with Hamas and try to make some mutually acceptable agreements, or be exposed for a country of lying hypocrites. Supporting the democratic process means you support it even if it didn’t go your way. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/65 "2006-01-27T04:09:43Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Supporting the democratic process means you support it even if it didn’t go your way. Agreed, but explain why such a beneficent organization is labeled a terrorist organization. Speaking of people who dislike Jews, Adolph Hitler was elected. Does that give legitimacy to his government? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/66 "2006-01-27T04:13:10Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Hamas won the election, plain and simple. We (the U.S.,) make a lot of noise about freedom and elections and democracy. Now that someone “we” didn’t want has won, it’s time to put up or shut up. We either talk with Hamas and try to make some mutually acceptable agreements, or be exposed for a country of lying hypocrites. Supporting the democratic process means you support it even if it didn’t go your way. No one is talking about trying to remove Hamas from power. That’s what democracy is about you know, being able to choose who you want to represent you. Supporting that right does not mean that you then agree with whatever the decision is. I support the right of the Palestinians to make their own choices, and to live with the consequences of those choices for the better or for the worse. If one of those consequences is that they get isolated from the rest of the world, then that was their right to choose and to live with. Your logic would imply that because I support free speech that I should go out and help a KKK group organize a rally and would be a hypocrite if I did not. I can and do support free spech and the democratic process, and for each I can disagree with and fight against the results. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/67 "2006-01-27T04:22:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Speaking of people who dislike Jews, Adolph Hitler was elected. Not exactly . . . ---
**Author:** ![Dubious\_Weasle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b782af/32.png) [@Dubious\_Weasle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dubious_Weasle)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/68 "2006-01-27T04:46:08Z")
Personally I’d be happy with a more pragmatic approach. There’s no need for us to wait until Hamas agrees to renounce violence and acknowledge Israel. Now, the violence bit is possible but even then, the actual renouncing bit isn’t the important part; it’s the not _using_ it that matters. I have no problem with Hamas publicly stated that they retain the right to resort to violence… as long as they don’t actually do it. Much like how the US has always never renounced the right to a first strike nuclear attack, the important part isn’t what we do or do not reserve the right to, but what we actually do. Of course, up until now, much of what Hamas has done has been violent so… well there you go. Likewise with acknowledging Israel’s right to exist and giving up the Right of Return. I think far too much effort is made trying to wrest these concessions from Palestinians. Who cares whether or not they maintain that Israel has no real right to exist, the important thing is whether or not they are actively trying to end that notional existence [which of course, so far they have been]. It doesn’t matter if they maintain that they have a right to live where their house used to be regardless if whether that’s in your living room or not, as long as they don’t actually try to move there. Both sides want so badly for the other side to make a concession and give up one of their primary tenants which I suppose is natural given that there has been so much blood between them. It seems however, that sometimes more effort is given to these ideological disputes then to the practical ones i.e. you stop shooting us, we’ll stop shooting you, you go to your side and ignore us, we’ll go to our side and ignore you. Who knows, I know it isn’t this simple and maybe this is exactly how the negotiations have gone in the past when they’ve broken down but it bugs me every time I hear a public official state that they “won’t do x until they do z.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/69 "2006-01-27T04:55:51Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Speaking of people who dislike Jews, Adolph Hitler was elected. Speaking of people named Hitler, was the guy featured in [this N.Y. Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/22/international/middleeast/22hitler.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all) elected Wednesday? \*"The candidate’s name is Jamal Abu Roub, but everyone here calls him Hitler because, well, that is the name he has answered to quite comfortably since he was a teenager. Mr. Roub, 40, is a leader of the militant Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades in this turbulent corner of the West Bank, and has spent the past five years leading his ragtag band of gunmen in frequent clashes with the Israeli military. Mr. Roub’s deeds include hauling a Palestinian suspected of collaborating with Israel and of molesting his own daughters into a town square, where the man was shot to death. Now Mr. Roub is a candidate for the Palestinian Parliament and is virtually assured of winning a seat in elections next Wednesday…In a July 2004 episode captured on camera, Mr. Roub and his Al Aksa gunmen dragged a Palestinian man into the central square of Qabatiya, Mr. Roub’s hometown, a few miles south of Jenin. The suspect was accused of collaborating with Israel and sexually abusing his own daughters, and the Al Aksa men asked the crowd what should be done. When the crowd replied, “Kill him immediately,” the gunmen riddled the man with bullets."\* ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/70 "2006-01-27T09:39:42Z")
I believe the IRA analogy stands. In the depths of the Troubles, it was _utterly unthinkable_ that the IRA would accept anything less than a united sovereign Ireland. Lo and behold, after Sinn Fein gained a powerful electoral mandate and years of difficult **negotiation** , we found that saying this was really only a tactic to gain as much from the _real_ compromise deal as possible. The PLO removed the call for Israel’s destruction from its charter after negotiation, despite all kinds of Paisleyite rhetoric that it would never ever ever do so. Why couldn’t Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/71 "2006-01-27T11:50:42Z")
Just some facts: [ > [@](#): > > “We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay (on the land), nor his ownership of any inch of land. . . . We are interested in restoring our full rights to return all the people of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust), which can not be given up.” > > (Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader and candidate to the Palestinian legislative council, Palestinian TV, **January 17, 2006** , Newsday) > > ``` > "The program [of Hamas-backed list to legislative council] sets out the details and means for its implementation over the next four years, while the [Hamas] charter talks about vision and strategy…The movement is adhering to the constants and strategies outlined in the [Hamas] charter." > > ``` > > (Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu-Zuhri, explains to Al-Sharq al-Awsat that there is no contradiction between Hamas’ platform for the election and its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, January 13, 2006, BBC Monitoring) > > “The vanquishing of the enemy in Gaza does not mean that this stage has ended. We still have Jerusalem and the pure West Bank. We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land.” > > (Sheik Nizar Rayan, Hamas “political” leader, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI) > > "By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews… > > “You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine…. We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side.” > > (Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader, June 10, 2003, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post) ]([http://www.adl.org/main\_israel/hamas\_own\_words.htm](http://www.adl.org/main_israel/hamas_own_words.htm)) [ > [@](#): > > Select Excerpts of the Hamas Charter > > "Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him… > > "The so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad…Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? ‘And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed….’ There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad…. > > "In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness… We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma… introducing fundamental changes in educational curricula in order to cleanse them from all vestiges of the ideological invasion which has been brought about by orientalists and missionaries…. ‘I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill’…. > > "The various Zionist Organizations which take on all sorts of names and shapes… Islam… will wipe out those organizations which are the enemy of humanity and Islam…. > > "The Nazism of the Jews does not skip women and children, it scares everyone. They make war against people’s livelihood, plunder their moneys and threaten their honor…. > > "The enemies have been scheming for a long time… They took advantage of key elements in unfolding events, and accumulated a huge and influential material wealth which they put to the service of implementing their dream…. [They have] control of the world media [and use their] wealth to stir revolutions… They stood behind the French and the Communist Revolutions… They also used the money to establish clandestine organizations which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests. Such organizations are: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs, B’nai B’rith and the like…. They also used the money to take over control of the Imperialist states and made them colonize many countries in order to exploit the wealth of those countries and spread their corruption therein… they stood behind World War I, so as to wipe out the Islamic Caliphate…. They also stood behind World War II, where they collected immense benefits from trading with war materials and prepared for the establishment of their state. They inspired the establishment of the United Nations and the Security Council… in order to rule the world by their intermediary. There was no war that broke out anywhere without their fingerprints on it… When Islam appears, all the forces of Unbelief unite to confront it, because the Community of Unbelief is one…. > > "The clandestine organizations which it has established… strive to demolish societies, to destroy values… It stands behind the diffusion of drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion…. Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims…. > > "Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam… members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region…. The Nazi Zionist practices against our people will not last the lifetime of their invasion… > > “World Zionism and Imperialist forces have been attempting, with smart moves and considered planning, to push the Arab countries, one after another, out of the circle of conflict with Zionism, in order, ultimately, to isolate the Palestinian People…. Today it is Palestine and tomorrow it may be another country or other countries. For Zionist scheming has no end, and after Palestine they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates…. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the best proof of what is said there. Leaving the circle of conflict with Israel is a major act of treason and it will bring curse on its perpetrators… We have no escape from pooling together all the forces and energies to face this despicable Nazi-Tatar invasion…Within the circle of the conflict with world Zionism, the Hamas regards itself the spearhead and the avant-garde…in order to make possible the next round with the Jews, the merchants of war.” (From Web site of the Palestine Center) ]([http://www.adl.org/main\_israel/hamas\_own\_words.htm](http://www.adl.org/main_israel/hamas_own_words.htm)) On the percent of Palestinian society who supports the murder of Israeli civilians within the green line: [ > [@](#): > > According to an opinion poll conducted in April by the Bethlehem-based Palestinian Center for Research and Cultural Dialogue, 76.5 percent of Palestinians support suicide bombings within the Green Line. ]([http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/1910.cfm](http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/1910.cfm)) (This figure, by the way, generally holds steady even during non-intifada times) On the stated goal of genocide during and after the '48 war: [ > [@](#): > > The Arabs refused any compromise and rejected the United Nations partition plan. On May 15, 1948, Azzam Pasha, Secretary General of the Arab League, made the Arab intentions unambiguously plain to the British Broadcasting Company: “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.” ]([http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001\_article](http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001_article)) [ > [@](#): > > Egyptian Foreign Minister Muhammad Salah al-Din affirmed this logic in 1949: “It is well-known and understood that the Arabs, in demanding the return of the refugees to Palestine, mean their return as masters of the Homeland and not as slaves. With a greater clarity, they mean the liquidation of the State of Israel.” ]([http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001\_article](http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001_article)) [ > [@](#): > > In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating: “Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason.” ]([http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001\_article](http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001_article)) On who is most responsible for Palestinian refugees and loss of territory: [ > [@](#): > > Even the foreign press, in regular contact with all sides during the conflict of 1948, wrote nothing to suggest that the flight of the Palestinians was not voluntary. Nor did Arab spokesmen, such as the Palestinian representative to the U.N., Jamal Husseini, or the secretary general of the Arab League, blame the Jews contemporaneously with the 1948 war for the flight of Arabs and Palestinians. In fact, those who fled were urged to do so by other Arabs. As then Prime Minister of Iraq Nuri Said put it, “the Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.” One Arab who fled encapsulated this thinking in the Jordanian newspaper Al-Difaa: “The Arab governments told us, `Get out so that we can get in.’ So we got out, but they did not get in.” ]([http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/031103/3anti\_6.htm](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/031103/3anti_6.htm)) [ > [@](#): > > As a former prime minister of Syria, Khaled al Azm, wrote in his memoirs, “It is we who demanded the return of the refugees while it is we who made them leave. We brought disaster upon them. [We] exploited them in executing crimes of murder and throwing bombs. All this in the service of political purposes.” ]([http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/031103/3anti\_6.htm](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/031103/3anti_6.htm)) [ > [@](#): > > The Economist reported on Oct. 2, 1948: “Various factors influenced [the Arabs’] decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit. . . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades.” ]([http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001\_article](http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001_article)) [ > [@](#): > > There are hundreds of thousands of Arabs who, following the commencement of hostilities in Palestine, left their domiciles at the call of Arab leaders from outside. The case of Haifa is especially well authenticated. When the British prepared to leave the city, they practically suggested that the two sides contest for it. After a day or two of battle, the Arab leaders appeared before the British General with a request that he negotiate the surrender. > > The conditions offered by the Jewish forces included full freedom and all civil rights for the Arab residents of Haifa; the Arabs who came from foreign countries to fight were to leave Palestine; and the surrender of only the German (Nazi) officers of the Arab “irregulars” was demanded. The Arab emissaries accepted the conditions transmitted to them by the British General. > > A few hours later, however, they returned and, wiping the sweat from their brows, informed the General that they had received orders from abroad not to go through with the agreement and to alert the Arab population that they should hurriedly leave the city. An exodus followed. ]([http://www.varchive.org/obs/481130.htm](http://www.varchive.org/obs/481130.htm)) > [@](#): > > This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country." > > - Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183 > [@](#): > > I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, > > - Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948 > [@](#): > > Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe. [However] …A large road convoy, escorted by [British] military . . . left Haifa for Beirut yesterday. . . . Evacuation by sea goes on steadily. …[Two days later, the Jews were] still making every effort to persuade the Arab populace to remain and to settle back into their normal lives in the towns… [as for the Arabs,] another convoy left Tireh for Transjordan, and the evacuation by sea continues. The quays and harbor are still crowded with refugees and their household effects, all omitting no opportunity to get a place an one of the boats leaving Haifa."" > > - Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz > [@](#): > > “Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.” > > - Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387 [ > [@](#): > > (PDF) > Arab leadership from among the para-military forces and the forces of Syria were vociferous in their announcements that they wanted Arabs to leave so that the armies would have a clear field in which to perpetrate their genocide of the Jews. When the war was over and the Jews were driven out or killed, the Arab residents could come > back and have both their own lands and those of the Jews. > We cannot know how many Arabs fled because of these announcements; but since a number of Arab spokespersons after the war admitted to having done this, and wrung their hands publicly in painful repentance of having created the refugee problem, it is clear that the Arab leadership’s own message to many Arabs in the area was a major factor in the Arab flight.1 > It is also important to point out at this time that there were a number of cases where Jewish leaders got out in public and pleaded with Arabs not to leave. The mayor of Haifa is the best example of this. At the risk of his own life, he drove through the Arab section of Haifa with a loudspeaker on his jeep, and in Arabic called out to the residents of his city to disregard the Arab propaganda. > Nonetheless, tens of thousands fled. The incredulous British officers who witnessed this, documented it in a variety of sources. Those Arabs who stayed were unharmed and became citizens of Israel.2 ]([http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf](http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf)) Now, I’m actually a bit surprised that anybody is surprised at Hamas’ election. I’ve seen it coming for a while now. I hope it will mellow their tone, but I doubt it. More likely than not they will continue to gain massive ammounts of foreign funds and continue to provide support services for the population. It would be nice to see Hamas repudiate the RoR, accept Israel’s right to exist, renounce civilian target bombingts, and negotiate in good faith. I just don’t think it’ll happen. Oh, and on the notion of what exactly we call Israel’s wall, I find it highly amusing that a poster who has championed the cold blooded murder of a pregnant woman and her children as ‘justified’ will now quibble over semantics. Likewise that the same poster would excuse deliberate murder of civilians of one nationality while pointedly ignoring any and all requests to define why such behavior wouldn’t be allowed for other nations speaks loudly to his real intent. Quaint. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/72 "2006-01-27T12:11:00Z")
Hamas can huff and it can puff all it wants but it will never be in a position to realise its rhetoric and I suspect, like the IRA, a large segment knows it and will settle for a lot less. That is the attitude Israel and the International community needs to encourage with carrot and stick. It can recommence terrorist activities (now 11 months without a Hamas bombing BTW), bringing about swingeing retaliation, or it can face up to the responsibilities of government. History seems to suggest that the responsibilities of government can be mellowing. Palestinians aren’t devils, they are people living a hellish, brutalised existence. Their anger and rage won’t be ameliorated by making that life even more hellish. It’s actions not words that count and if progress can be made with carrot and stick and a HAMAS govt can say, peace now (but we’ll sweep you into the sea in 60 years time) then I’d say ‘sticks and stones, you and whose army’ and take it as a step forward worth making. A generation of peace, a generation of economic development and the rage will fade. And if it does not? A palestinian state can only survive on the whim of its regional super-power neighbour, who has the backing of the USA. Israel can hurt Palestine a helluva lot more than the reverse and after a generation I’ll bet Palestinians won’t see a hopeless war that will see them reduced to misery as a worthwhile thing. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/73 "2006-01-27T13:25:21Z")
[I wonder if the Netherlands keep supporting Hamas.](http://www.cidi.nl/news/2003/250103a.html) Now that they’re in power, I’d imagine they no longer need our ‘welfare’ money. I have a question. I was talking with my brother about all those good things Hamas has done. You know, building schools and stuff. Does that mean that the unemployment figures [72%] actually have gone down? Also: I’d appreciate a link to what you wrote here **mswas** : > [@](#): > > - > > Hamas was one of the only groups actually benefitting the people in Palestine. As was said they build schools and hospitals. Two good friends of mine snuck into the West Bank to do activism. One of them a male told me that Hamas doesn’t teach children to hate Israel as much as many people like to believe that. He said that they teach them how to read and write and do math.\* ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/74 "2006-01-27T13:26:10Z")
> [@Dubious Weasle](#): > > Personally I’d be happy with a more pragmatic approach. There’s no need for us to wait until Hamas agrees to renounce violence and acknowledge Israel. I don’t know where you live, but imagine if you will that your next door neighbor has declared you have no right to exist and is going to force you off your land and kill you if necessary to do so. They have attempted to do this many times in the past by injuring and killing some of your relatives and proclaim publicly that they will continue to do so. They get some of their members elected to the local council, so you don’t call the police because they now have something else to occupy their time? Yes, no? Okay, lets remove the part of the scenario that they have done any actual injuries to you. Would it matter to you if your neighbor continued to say they will kill you and drive you off your land? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/75 "2006-01-27T13:44:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … > \ ***Sevastopol** , the fact is that for most of its course the fence is nothing more than a simple chain link fence in the middle of a road with various detection devices placed on each side. At points it is a wall. Personally, if it needed to be a big big friggin wall the whole way with concrete and barbed wire and glass shards and trained Dobermans, I wouldn’t care, and would then call it a wall. A well justified wall. What it is though is a barrier that reduces the ability of terrorists to get into Israel proper, and placing it \*\*whereever it needs to go \*\* to provide that protection will be in Israel’s immediate interest.Final borders will need to be determined later when there is an adequate negotiating partner. That means someone who is not committed to destroying you and who can deliver security. That party has not yet existed. Say it with me: ‘Land Grab’ But you knew that already, in keeping tightly on message. The next stage is to employ the refrain ‘facts on the ground.’ Discipline, it’s a wonderful, wonderful thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/76 "2006-01-27T14:05:23Z")
> [@gum](#): > > [I wonder if the Netherlands keep supporting Hamas.](http://www.cidi.nl/news/2003/250103a.html) > Now that they’re in power, I’d imagine they no longer need our ‘welfare’ money. > … The answer to this question is found at the source you rely on: [CIDI: The Peace Process](http://www.cidi.nl/info/standpuntcidi-en.html) > [@](#): > > [T]he establishment of an independent, viable Palestinian state next to Israel. > … > That state must be established on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, conforming the conditions set by **Security Council resolution 242** [Resolution 242](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_242) > [@](#): > > United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 (S/RES/242) was adopted unanimously by the UN Security Council on November 22, 1967 in the aftermath of the Six Day War. It calls for the “withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict” … in exchange for an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict. The “territories” here refer to the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights. It also calls for the recognition of all established states by belligerent parties (Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan) of each other and calls for the establishment of defensible boundries for all parties. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/77 "2006-01-27T15:05:20Z")
Say, isn’t it about time for **ephraim** to start a thread explaining why Mahmoud Zahar is the Third Beast of Revelation? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/78 "2006-01-27T15:39:53Z")
**Zev, Sal, Finn,** and anyone I forgot: Can we please agree to leave the debate about Israel’s creation out of debates on the current situation? It can be a forever digression and has been the subject of so many past threads … neither side was pristine and the issue here is how to move forward. **Sal** , this request is especially for you, because you seem to start these off. At least start a seperate thread and read through some of the histories as seen from the opposing POV before posting (ie be familiar with the Mufti of Jerusalem, early massacres of Jewish towns, the three nos, etc). But for all of us, can we please accept that there is an Israel that will not be going away (even if you believe that its creation was a mistake) and that there is a Palestinian people currently in existence who percieve themselves to be wronged, and who are currently living in dire conditions without a state of their own (even if you believe that such an identity is a recent creation of the last 60 years and that their current dire conditiion is more a result of Arab actions than of Jewish ones)? These are the facts, let’s live with them and try to move forward from them, okay? So what now? I’ve had a day or two to think about it (and a few editorials read) and have come to the following predictions: Israel’s side - Olmert plays to the hard side of the fence before the election. Polls show that half the Israeli public would accept dealing with Hamas but almost half does not. Tactically he needs to undercut Bibi before anything else. Labour wnning a few more seats doesn’t hurt him long term as much. He can soften a little afterwards and have that be accepted by most. Assuming Kadima wins, he then has no overt contact with Hamas, but continues down two paths simultaneously. He finishes the fence and prepares for unilateral disengagement all the while withdrawing settlements in step with the terms of the Bush Roadmap as part of previously agreed upon bilateral terms to move forward. No direct negotiations but back channels and observation as to if Hamas follows through with the terms on their side. If they do, and if they prevet attacks (even if they overtly state that it is a tactical decision to have a period of quiet in service of the long term goal of Israel’s destruction) then use some acceptable back channels and indirect negotiations about coming to the table officially on a more acceptable final status. US side- Continue funding Palestinian services even if you need to find back channels to do it so long as Hamas honors the ceasefire and attempts to enforce it on other Arab players. As the a NYTimes editorialist quoted Peres having said: “We are not fighting against a name,” he said. “We are fighting against a situation. If the situation changes, then what difference does a name make?” Hamas- They need to deliver on a cleaned house and basic services for their people. I do not get the impression that this was a vote for Islamic fundamentalism or for attacking Israel but against Fatah impotance and incompentance. If they prove to be the same then Fatah will be back soon. Negotiating with Israel is lower priority for them than basic services provision. They will honor the ceasefire if only because Israeli retaliation and isolation from the world would make accomplishing that goal impossible. If the fence does not appear to be a land grab and settlements do indeed come out (even as part of a unilateral Israeli process, they will declare that a victory for them and that the Israelis are in retreat. After a few years in power and struggling to meet their goals of basic service provision, they will come to the table through back channels over final status negotiations. Fatah- will stay low and hope for Hamas to fail. Become a real opposition party. Hey, I’m a dreamer. ( **Sev** , bluntly put that land aint worth that much for as to grab … other than for security needs. Boy, Israel really needs a bit more underirrigated dirt. The focus on a few sq kms here or there is shortsided, negotiations to be meaningful need to focus on control over water resources, shared tax revenues, economic development, how to deliver security.) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/79 "2006-01-27T15:40:38Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Say it with me: > > ‘Land Grab’ Say it with me: deliberately targeting civilians inside the green line time and time and time again with the virtually full support of the PA and Palestinian society. Say it with me: any Israeli response is demonized except doing **nothing** and allowing themselves to be exterminated. Say it with me: Peace and land-for-peace has been offered numerous times, and the deliberate and calculated response has **always** been civilian-targeted terrorism. > [@Sevastopol](#): > > But you knew that already, in keeping tightly on message. Right back atcha. “They’re defending their civilians from being slaughtered by an organization whose stated goal is genocide, and in the process their wall goes too far into Palestinian territory. The bastards!” > [@Sevastopol](#): > > The next stage is to employ the refrain ‘facts on the ground.’ Discipline, it’s a wonderful, wonderful thing. Or to ask the Israelis to submit to extermination. Willful ignorance, it’s a wonderful, wonderful thing. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/80 "2006-01-27T15:47:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Zev, Sal, Finn,** and anyone I forgot: > Can we please agree to leave the debate about Israel’s creation out of debates on the current situation? Sure, I just wanted the facts out there, especially as they’ve been touched on. > [@DSeid](#): > > But for all of us, can we please accept that there is an Israel that will not be going away (even if you believe that its creation was a mistake) and that there is a Palestinian people currently in existence who percieve themselves to be wronged, and who are currently living in dire conditions without a state of their own (even if you believe that such an identity is a recent creation of the last 60 years and that their current dire conditiion is more a result of Arab actions than of Jewish ones)? These are the facts, let’s live with them and try to move forward from them, okay? Sure thing. I’d be the first to support a viable two state solution which would enhance the economy of both states and allow the Palestinians, already one of the most highly educated people in the ME, to flourish. I just think that having an organization whose stated goal is genocide be their leaders is not the best way to accomplish that. > [@DSeid](#): > > Continue funding Palestinian services even if you need to find back channels to do it so long as Hamas honors the ceasefire and attempts to enforce it on other Arab players. That’s the real catch, I suppose. If it happens I’ll be thrilled, but I do not have high hopes. > [@DSeid](#): > > They need to deliver on a cleaned house and basic services for their people. I do not get the impression that this was a vote for Islamic fundamentalism or for attacking Israel but against Fatah impotance and incompentance. If they prove to be the same then Fatah will be back soon. Are you sure? If Hamas gets the public works in order, and still persues its genocidal campaign, do you really think that Palestinian society will throw them out? > [@DSeid](#): > > If the fence does not appear to be a land grab and settlements do indeed come out (even as part of a unilateral Israeli process, they will declare that a victory for them and that the Israelis are in retreat. After a few years in power and struggling to meet their goals of basic service provision, they will come to the table through back channels over final status negotiations. From your mouth to OG’s ear. More likely is that Hamas will continue as it has done and scapegoat Israel for any problems while continuing the tradition of indoctrination and murder. But hey, I’m a cynic. Which is part of why I wasn’t surprised that Hamas was in, and was kinda surprised that others were, themselves, surprised. Ah well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687.md?page=5)