# Hamas wins **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687 "2006-01-26T13:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/81 "2006-01-27T16:06:49Z")
What would happen now, since Hamas is in power, that they find they can not afford to pursue the “death and destruction” rhetoric anymore? That sort of talk is easy when you are an outsider, but not so “useful” once you are in charge. Suddenly, if things go bad, people know it’s your fault. I expect that expect for electioneering rhetoric, Hamas will start to “mellow out”. They will have to run things and budget, and organize and oversee. Real work. They will also have to provide for policing and security. They will be responsible. If they are practical or pragnatic, they will also understand that as the ruling party, if they declare “death to Israel” and someone acts on it, then that will not be some independent group they can disavow - it will be treated as an act of war. I expect Hamas to become more moderate with time. Still, there seems to be a tone of, if you all will forgive me, “They are bad. They will do bad things. We have to kill them now”. An exaggeration maybe, but still it isn’t much of a jump. Palestine had their election, and I will assume for now that it was an honest election. If we reject the new government, or help anyone attack them now openly, officially or secretly, then all our talk about freedom and democracy is horse shit. We will have to then admit we don’t give a damn about that, just so long as we have our own little puppets in power. Finally, I doubt they would openly attack Israel. I don’t think they have that big a death wish. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/82 "2006-01-27T16:18:43Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > US side- > > Continue funding Palestinian services even if you need to find back channels to do it so long as Hamas honors the ceasefire and attempts to enforce it on other Arab players. As the a NYTimes editorialist quoted Peres having said: “We are not fighting against a name,” he said. “We are fighting against a situation. If the situation changes, then what difference does a name make?” I don’t understand this. Are the Palestinians children that they don’t understand the consequences of their actions? They elected a terrorist organization for their government and have to live with the results of that action. Assuredly they must have known that outside funds that they are currently getting could be curtailed because of their actions. The US response should be, “Change your stated goals, or you don’t get anymore of our money”. There is nothing hypocritical in this attitude. It is your money and you can put whatever caveats you want on it before you give it away. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/83 "2006-01-27T16:19:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Sev** , bluntly put that land aint worth that much for as to grab … other than for security needs. Boy, Israel really needs a bit more underirrigated dirt. I’d strongly disagree with this. Have another look at [this](http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/seperationmap_eng.swf) summary from an [Israeli](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Shalom) peace organisation. [ul][li]The land in question is _not_ underirrigated dirt: it comprises **80%** of the fertile land and **65%** of the water resources.[/li][\*]Such a meandering wall is **less** secure compared to a simple Green Line path, which would be less than half the proposed length. And if the resulting ‘narrowness’ of Israel is a security issue, why has the wall at the narrowest point (around the prison town of [Qalqilya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#Effects_on_Palestinians), which will never see another sunset) _already been built_? [/ul]Negotiation over path of this wall is crucial to whether Hamas controls a state that is _viable_ or not. If the state simply has not the resources to support itself _even in principle_, we ought not be surprised at what atrocities its desperate people commit no matter how unreservedly we condemn them. (I repeat, I _unreservedly condemn_ Hamas atrocities, but to understand is not to excuse). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/84 "2006-01-27T16:33:41Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Israel, for the most part, has renounced violence. The only area where they are actively violent is in targeting terrorist leaders. Tell that to the crowds in the west bank being sprayed by rubber bullets. Erek ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/85 "2006-01-27T16:54:20Z")
:rolleyes: Tell that to the gunmen and children who’ve been paid to take part in those riots. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/86 "2006-01-27T19:12:19Z")
**Sentient** , Gush-Shalom isn’t famous for its factual accuracy. They also published maps of what was offered by Barak, which was interesting because all the participants said that such maps never existed and that the concepts presented were different than as described by Gush-Shalom. In this case their information is (I presume knowingly) out of date or inaccurate in the first place. (Much of it was based on predictions from Palestinian sources, not from any official plans.) See [here.](http://www.mideastweb.org/thefence.htm) > [@](#): > > As of February 20, 2005, the following changes had been made relative to the original planning shown below: > > - The barrier route had been moved closer to the green line border, so that only about 7% of West Bank territory was included in the area it encloses on the Israeli side. Claims that the fence encloses or controls larger areas of the West Bank are false. It does include a large number of Palestinians in urban areas in Jerusalem, who will still be on the Israel side of the fence. > > - Plans for a “projected” eastern route that would have encircled the Palestinian cities have been dropped. > > - Plans to extend the barrier to Ariel were put in abeyance. > > The planned and completed barrier route still includes several large Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including Efrat, Gush Etzion and Maaleh Edumim. **Uzi** , all I’m saying is let us judge and respond not to rhetoric but to actions. If Hamas behaves responsibly, then respond accordingly, albeit cautiously and all the while moving forward with the capacity for unilateral disengagement. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/87 "2006-01-27T19:29:37Z")
And **Sentient** , if you want another source confirming my facts, try [here.](http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2268) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/88 "2006-01-27T19:58:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **Uzi** , all I’m saying is let us judge and respond not to rhetoric but to actions. If Hamas behaves responsibly, then respond accordingly, albeit cautiously and all the while moving forward with the capacity for unilateral disengagement. Actions do speak louder than words which is a point I try to make consistently when the company I work for comes out with it latest ‘Integrity’ initiative on an annual basis. And if it always didn’t look like a way to pass the buck down to the guy on the ground and take it off the big guys making millions in the boardroom back in corporate, I’d be inclined to be more supportive of said initiatives. Hamas has a proven track record of killing Israelis. I don’t think it is much to ask someone to say publicly that they promise to stop killing you before you deal with them. I’d think it would be a prerequisite. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/89 "2006-01-27T22:41:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > :rolleyes: > Tell that to the gunmen and children who’ve been paid to take part in those riots. Yes, but I never made any claims about the Palestinian dedication to peace. We can go around and around in circles about who’s to blame in this issue, I just want to make sure no one gets away with sentimental bullshit regarding the righteousness of Israel. Both sides are fighting a nasty bloody balls out war, not just the Palestinians. That’s all I’m saying. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/90 "2006-01-27T22:52:02Z")
From the title of this thread, I find myself imagining a radio broadcast featuring an excited Palestinian announcer saying (in overblown Russ Hodges-style): “Hamas wins! Hamas wins! Hamas wins!” And then (to complete the sports analogy) floats in the unmistakable voice of Osama bin Laden, doing his best Al Michaels imitation: _“Do you believe in miracles?”_ There was a cartoon in Friday’s _USA Today_ showing two men identified as “GM” and “Ford” seated in a car hurtling off a cliff. The caption read “Thelma and Louise”. The cartoon could easily be adapted to reflect the results of the Palestinian elections. The figures in the car could be relabeled “Palestinians” and “Hamas”. Or they could represent “Palestinians” and “Israelis” reading a road map marked **Hamas** as the car goes over the cliff. Thanks, I’ve got a million of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/91 "2006-01-27T23:00:54Z")
What’s funny about this, is that people don’t like the outcome of democracy in the middle east. Hamas is probably going to do better for the Palestinians than Fatah ever could, and I feel that they are a better hope for peace than anything we’ve seen thus far. Anyone that’s surprised when democratic elections put fundamentalist muslim governments in place in the middle east where we’ve been meddling for years, has gotta be extremely naive. Get over your view of good and evil, then come back and take a more serious look at the issue. You all defend your right to violently defend yourself, they are just doing the same, it’s politics as usual. I just hope western politicians don’t fuck it up with all this hypocritical rhetoric about terror states. They aren’t doing anything we aren’t doing except, lacking the resources to dominate countries on the other side of the world. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/92 "2006-01-27T23:07:54Z")
My prediction:Same old bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/93 "2006-01-27T23:25:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Get over your view of good and evil, then come back and take a more serious look at the issue. You’re right, Erek. We should get over our view of good and evil. It’s an outmoded concept. We shouldn’t bother to pretend that we care about justice or morality. We should just do whatever we want, when we can get away with it. There won’t be any consequences. We’re the most powerful nation in the world. And there is no-longer anyone who could be even the most pitiful threat to us, now that the Soviet Union is gone. Anything we do is justified, as long as we win. Is… that really what you want us to do, Erek? Is that what you think we have done? Because there are depths that we could sink to, that other countries have, historically, that we have not. I’m offended. I really am. And I want you to think about what you’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/94 "2006-01-27T23:25:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, but I never made any claims about the Palestinian dedication to peace. We can go around and around in circles about who’s to blame in this issue, I just want to make sure no one gets away with sentimental bullshit regarding the righteousness of Israel. Why? How does that serve a purpose beyond setting up a false moral equivelancy? There has been a stated goal of genocide for decades now. Why ignore that fact? > [@mswas](#): > > Both sides are fighting a nasty bloody balls out war, not just the Palestinians. That’s all I’m saying. But again this is a false equivelancy. The original statement was that Israel has renounced violence except when dealing with terrorist leaders. It would’ve been more accurate to leave out the word leaders, but firing rubber bullets on a mob who are throwing rocks (which can be lethal weapons) and have gunmen in their midst is hardly something to place on the same level as the deliberate and targeted murder of civilians. > [@mswas](#): > > What’s funny about this, is that people don’t like the outcome of democracy in the middle east. Hamas is probably going to do better for the Palestinians than Fatah ever could, and I feel that they are a better hope for peace than anything we’ve seen thus far. Those people who still say that their negotiating partners have no right to exist and should be exterminated? THey’re the best hope for peace so far? > [@mswas](#): > > Get over your view of good and evil, then come back and take a more serious look at the issue. One side wants genocide. One side does not. Why ignore this? > [@mswas](#): > > You all defend your right to violently defend yourself, they are just doing the same, it’s politics as usual. No, there is _not_ an equivelancy between the two. In one case the Israelis are defending themselves, in the other Hamas and its allies have been targeting Israeli _civilians._ > [@mswas](#): > > I just hope western politicians don’t fuck it up with all this hypocritical rhetoric about terror states. For all the US’ flaws in warfare, we have never deliberately tried to maximize civilian casualities while avoiding military targets. > [@mswas](#): > > They aren’t doing anything we aren’t doing except, lacking the resources to dominate countries on the other side of the world. Please list the peoples/nations we are currently or have in the past attempted genocide against. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/95 "2006-01-27T23:38:05Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > You’re right, Erek. We should get over our view of good and evil. It’s an outmoded concept. We shouldn’t bother to pretend that we care about justice or morality. We should just do whatever we want, when we can get away with it. There won’t be any consequences. We’re the most powerful nation in the world. And there is no-longer anyone who could be even the most pitiful threat to us, now that the Soviet Union is gone. > > Anything we do is justified, as long as we win. > > Is… that really what you want us to do, Erek? Is that what you think we have done? Because there are depths that we could sink to, that other countries have, historically, that we have not. > > I’m offended. I really am. And I want you to think about what you’ve said. I didn’t stipulate what conclusion you should come to, merely that you might want to re-evaluate your view. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/96 "2006-01-27T23:47:12Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Why? How does that serve a purpose beyond setting up a false moral equivelancy? There has been a stated goal of genocide for decades now. Why ignore that fact? Do they have the power to accomplish this genocide? > [@](#): > > But again this is a false equivelancy. The original statement was that Israel has renounced violence except when dealing with terrorist leaders. It would’ve been more accurate to leave out the word leaders, but firing rubber bullets on a mob who are throwing rocks (which can be lethal weapons) and have gunmen in their midst is hardly something to place on the same level as the deliberate and targeted murder of civilians. Ummm yeah ok. Israel is this beacon of hope. How many multiples more palestinians are killed in any given year than Israelis again? I forget is still like ten dead Palestinians for one dead Israeli? > [@](#): > > Those people who still say that their negotiating partners have no right to exist and should be exterminated? THey’re the best hope for peace so far? That’s what they say when their back is against the wall. We’ll see what they say when we let them out of the cage and give them some room to move. That’s what Tony Montana said when the Colombians were raiding his house too, and no matter how badass his little friend was, he still went down. > [@](#): > > One side wants genocide. > One side does not. Yeah, so let’s make sure we keep fueling the flames. > [@](#): > > No, there is _not_ an equivelancy between the two. In one case the Israelis are defending themselves, in the other Hamas and its allies have been targeting Israeli _civilians._ It’s easy to keep the moral highground when you have all the guns. That’s how the British maintained it. > [@](#): > > For all the US’ flaws in warfare, we have never deliberately tried to maximize civilian casualities while avoiding military targets. The US killed as many Afghani civilians in the 6 months following 9/11 as Americans died in the 9/11 attacks. > [@](#): > > Please list the peoples/nations we are currently or have in the past attempted genocide against. What they say when their back is to the wall, and what they say when they have something to lose are two different things. We’ll see what happens. Meanwhile you can compare civilian deaths on both sides. I was wrong it’s not 10 times, it’s only 5 Palestinians per Israeli. [http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/ispal-casualty.html](http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/ispal-casualty.html) Erek ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/97 "2006-01-27T23:52:17Z")
If Hamas is going to remain a bull$hit-violence organization that is bad for its own people, THOSE people have to realize it. While not in power, they can blame all of their problems on Israel of Fatah… but now that HAMAS occupies an official capacity, we can all hope that they will hold themselves to higher standards, or that people will say, “Hey, things still suck”, and realize that maybe HAMAS was no better than anyone else. I have a feeling one might compare the situation lightly to the one in the US – It’s easy to blame Republicans for the problems, because they are in power and they suck. If they suck bad enough, people may vote for more Democrats, who also suck, but they are not in power, so do not carry the entire accountability. When things don’t get any better, they turn back and recognize that those Democrats suck (vicious cycle). If they (and we) actually go through an enlightenment period (which I doubt), then they will all be voting for independants, based on the content of their character and ability, instead of party enuendo ------ I can always cross my fingers and hope, yes?! Vote for Kinki! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/98 "2006-01-27T23:53:42Z")
> [@Citizen Bob](#): > > Vote for Kinki! My wife’s parents are going to. ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/99 "2006-01-27T23:56:51Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > You’re right, Erek. We should get over our view of good and evil. It’s an outmoded concept. We shouldn’t bother to pretend that we care about justice or morality. We should just do whatever we want, when we can get away with it. There won’t be any consequences. We’re the most powerful nation in the world. And there is no-longer anyone who could be even the most pitiful threat to us, now that the Soviet Union is gone. > > Anything we do is justified, as long as we win. > > Is… that really what you want us to do, Erek? Is that what you think we have done? Because there are depths that we could sink to, that other countries have, historically, that we have not. > > I’m offended. I really am. And I want you to think about what you’ve said. Hmmm, sounds like a story of morals that Plato mentioned once, hmm, Atlantis maybe?! Technological giants?, wealthy?, thought they were more powerful than the gods (Trans: ultimate force of nature)? I wish someMSWAS’s would at least listen to kiddie bedtime stories. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/100 "2006-01-27T23:58:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Do they have the power to accomplish this genocide? … is that a defense? “Well, they want genocide and they’re trying real hard but as of yet haven’t managed it.” > [@mswas](#): > > Ummm yeah ok. Israel is this beacon of hope. How many multiples more palestinians are killed in any given year than Israelis again? I forget is still like ten dead Palestinians for one dead Israeli? :dubious: Anywhere where I actually said that Israel is the beacon of hope? No, eh? You do notice that you totally dodged the actual situation just to continue with this tired rhetoric? Yes, more Palestinians have been killed. Does that change the fact that the Israeli response of rubber bullets is most often used with murderous rock throwing mobs who have gunmen in their midst? Doesn’t, does it? > [@mswas](#): > > That’s what they say when their back is against the wall. Simply false. That’s what’s been said since before '48. > [@mswas](#): > > That’s what Tony Montana said when the Colombians were raiding his house too, and no matter how badass his little friend was, he still went down Well, citing a work of fiction as an example. I’m sure beat. > [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, so let’s make sure we keep fueling the flames. Like I said, any response other than laying down and allowing themselves to be butchered is demonized. If they protect themselves they’re “fueling the flames”. Again, one side wants genocide, the other does not. You’re ignoring this fact. > [@mswas](#): > > It’s easy to keep the moral highground when you have all the guns. That’s how the British maintained it. What the heck is this supposed to mean? Do you think this is somehow a refutation of the fact that Hamas has a stated goal of genocide and the Israelis are defending themselves? > [@mswas](#): > > The US killed as many Afghani civilians in the 6 months following 9/11 as Americans died in the 9/11 attacks. What part of the word “deliberate” is confusing you here? > [@mswas](#): > > What they say when their back is to the wall, and what they say when they have something to lose are two different things. We’ll see what happens. Again, your understanding of history is flawed, at best. They’ve been saying this since they were the dominant power in the region and the soon-to-be Israelis were smuggling in weapon parts in crates of tractor parts. > [@mswas](#): > > Meanwhile you can compare civilian deaths on both sides. Which proves what, exactly? That the Israelis are better at protecting themselves than the Palestinians are at exterminating them? > [@mswas](#): > > I was wrong it’s not 10 times, it’s only 5 Palestinians per Israeli. > [http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/ispal-casualty.html](http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/arccrisis/ispal-casualty.html) So? Does this change anything? The Palestinians support and carry out a campaign of genocide, and in the process they don’t manage to kill as many people as they lose. This makes their position morally equivelent to someone trying to not be butchered? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687.md?page=6)