# Hamas wins **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2006, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687 "2006-01-26T13:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/101 "2006-01-28T00:08:14Z")
**FinnAgain** How can I possibly argue with that sort of jingoism? You’re right the Israelis have the moral superiority, just as all ‘civilized’ nations have had over whatever underdog they were fighting at the time. There ain’t nothing to be said, because you don’t want to give the other side of the issue much thought. **CitizenBob** I was always a big fan of Grendel. Erek ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/102 "2006-01-28T00:18:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **FinnAgain** How can I possibly argue with that sort of jingoism? Jingoism? I do not think that word means what you think it means. Besides, you could argue with it by being factual and having an understanding of history of the current situation int he region. > [@mswas](#): > > You’re right the Israelis have the moral superiority, just as all ‘civilized’ nations have had over whatever underdog they were fighting at the time. No. They have moral superiority just as everybody trying to avoid being exterminated has. > [@mswas](#): > > There ain’t nothing to be said, because you don’t want to give the other side of the issue much thought. Check your crystal ball Kreskin. As evinced by your blatantly wrong statement about this being something recent due to their having their ‘backs against a wall’ you evidently might have thought a bit about it, but don’t really know anything about the situation. I’ve both thought about it and done my research. There is the simple fact that genocide is never justified and if attempted you immediately lose any claim to a moral position, let alone a moral high ground. If, in the process of your attempted genocide, you take more casaulties than those you’re trying to butcher then you get what you deserved. It’s funny that the Palestinians, who are largely commited to genocide, often call the Israelis Nazis. Check some of Hamas’ statements which call for the extermination of Jews _anywhere_ on earth. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/103 "2006-01-28T00:38:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Anyone that’s surprised when democratic elections put fundamentalist muslim governments in place in the middle east where we’ve been meddling for years, has gotta be extremely naive. Why would anyone’s meddling cause someone to vote for fundamentalists if you didn’t have the temperment to do so in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/104 "2006-01-28T00:45:20Z")
Hamas may have found themselves in a Democratic briar pit. After the election, they begged the current government to stay on. No dice. Now they’ve asked Fatah to form a coalition with them. No dice. They’re left with the whole bag. This is going to make it tough for them to play the ‘good cop/bad cop’ schtick they’ve been doing for years, in which the ‘official’ Palestinian government promises peace, but Israel gets attacked anyway, because well, they can’t control those Hamas guys, you know. The worst-case scenario might have been Hamas winning 30-40% of the vote - enough to give them more power, but little enough that they could continue the rocket attacks and suicide attacks while the majority government pretends it can’t do a thing about it. So now the Palestinians have overwhelmingly voted in Hamas. If they continue what they have been doing, it will be an act of war. So it’s either straighten up and fly right, or face much more serious consequences for their obnoxious behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/105 "2006-01-28T01:28:00Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Why would anyone’s meddling cause someone to vote for fundamentalists if you didn’t have the temperment to do so in the first place? Because the fundamentalists sound justified when they say, “See the infidels want to destroy Islam, they continue to bomb us, they support the corrupt Saudi Regime, they want to steal our oil so that they can continue to live their gluttonous western lives.” **FinnAgain** I’m by no means an expert but I did study the issue quite a bit as I was married to an Israeli and I studied it so that I could understand her culture. I’ve known both Israelis and Arabs as well as people who have been EMTs in Concentration camps in Palestine. I can’t come to the same conclusions that you have come to, I’m sorry. I won’t oversimplify the issue by judging the Palestinians by the same criteria as the Israelis, quite simply because the Israelis have the upper hand by a wide margin. I know what it’s like to be backed into a corner and to say things that are pretty extreme in order to bolster my position against someone who can overwhelm me. There’s a saying in the ghetto, “The one who rules the hood isn’t the strongest, isn’t the toughest, isn’t the fastest, isn’t the smartest, it’s the craziest.”, and I have found that to be true. No one wants to pick on the guy who’s willing to go more quickly to the nuclear option. It’s a tactic that’s very common when one develops a siege mentality. It’s how people behave in prison, and the situation of the Palestinians is very similar to that of the Prison populations. So Hamas is the biggest gang in their cell block, because they’re the most willing to take it to the mats. Erek ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/106 "2006-01-28T01:41:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I won’t oversimplify the issue by judging the Palestinians by the same criteria as the Israelis, Oversimplify? You’re kidding right? Genocide becomes okay if it’s Palestinians doing it? I am always baffled by this tactic used by genocide apologists. They judge Israel by a harsher standard than those who are attempting genocide, and demand that Israel play nice-nice while their civilians are being targeted for ethnic cleansing. Quite frankly you lose any solid position in a debate if you refuse to hold nations to the same standard. > [@mswas](#): > > quite simply because the Israelis have the upper hand by a wide margin. Cops have the upper hand over criminals by a wide margin, too. Does that mean if a bunch of criminals go around to the homes of police officers and murder their families you’d refuse to apply objective standards? > [@mswas](#): > > I know what it’s like to be backed into a corner and to say things that are pretty extreme in order to bolster my position against someone who can overwhelm me. **Again** : this has been their position since before '48 when they had overwhelming military superiority. Oh, and: [At the battle of Okinawa Japanese casualities were more than twice American casualties. So obviously they were in the right.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/okinawa-battle.htm) [At the Battle of the Bulge the Germans lost about 1.25 times the number of soldiers as the allies. Thus, they were in the right.](http://www.worldwar2history.info/Bulge/) [We see here that the Germans lost 8.1 million soldiers in WWII, making them more moral and more in the right than everybody except Russia, who was about 3 times as moral and right as the Germans, as evinced by the casualties.](http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/107 "2006-01-28T01:42:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Because the fundamentalists sound justified when they say, “See the infidels want to destroy Islam, they continue to bomb us, they support the corrupt Saudi Regime, they want to steal our oil so that they can continue to live their gluttonous western lives.” Funny, the entire time I’ve been in Yemen I’ve yet to hear anyone complain about the corrupt Saudi Regime. Nor have I heard about them wanting to steal our oil. Most know that the oil is sold and money is given in return. They aren’t stupid. No, IMHO, people vote for fundamentalists because that is who they want to vote for because it matches their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/108 "2006-01-28T02:19:12Z")
Actually, and this is a bit optimistic, but I’m looking forward to the Hamas government. Fatah’s been looting for aeons, and now someone has to pay for things, build roads, and so on. Hamas is going to get either rich or responsible, and either tends to erode fanaticism. If we’re very lucky, they may take care of their people first. If they don’t? If they continue to act as terrorists… it becomes war. Not terror anymore, because they’re running their country, it’s warfare. And war is something that the Israelis can win. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/109 "2006-01-28T02:21:33Z")
**FinnAgain** I’m going to take my ball and go home if you can’t understand that I am not saying the Israelis are worse than the Palestinians. Your logic is kind of like the logic where the British wanted the IRA to disarm before they’d negotiate with Sinn Fein. What I see is a bunch of people trapped in a situation they deem as hopeless and lashing out at their oppressors by threats of genocide. **Uzi** What about Iran where right before the “Axis of Evil” remark there was a moderate president Mohammed Khatami and a strong moderate reform movement amongst the youth who happen to outnumber the older generation by quite a bit. Then the “Axis of Evil” comment was made and the fundamentalists were able to sway things in their direction. Evils have been perpetrated by both sides, and I’m not going to pick a side in this issue, and I’m going to point out that neither side has the morally superior position. The Israelis sold their righteousness out years ago. I can sympathize but that doesn’t mean I’m going to succumb to jingoism. The reality is that Hamas is one of the only organizations that was doing shit for the Palestinians and they elected them for that. Democracy is a bitch when the majority votes in a way you don’t like. But isn’t that what we are fighting for? We’re fighting for democracy over there right? Well eat your shit and like it, because that’s democracy in the middle east. I’m holding out to see what Hamas does. Who knows, in ten years they might soften their position a bit if things start going well. We’re not going to kill our way out of the terrorist problem, eventually we need to sit down and start working with them, that’s what peace is going to take, get used to it if you don’t want your children’s children living in the same fear that you are. Erek ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/110 "2006-01-28T02:34:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **FinnAgain** I’m going to take my ball and go home if you can’t understand that I am not saying the Israelis are worse than the Palestinians. Just that they should be held to a totally different standard while Hamas has a stated goal of genocide. > [@mswas](#): > > Your logic is kind of like the logic where the British wanted the IRA to disarm before they’d negotiate with Sinn Fein. False analogy. Sinn Fein wasn’t dedicated to genocide. It’s really not that far out to ask that someone renounce their desire to exterminate you before you engage in diplomacy. > [@mswas](#): > > What I see is a bunch of people trapped in a situation they deem as hopeless and lashing out at their oppressors by threats of genocide. Are you being dishonest by this point, or just not reading my posts? They have been making threats of genocide since **before** the '48 war. Also, don’t give me any of your bull about how you don’t see Israel as being worse than Palestine if you’re calling them “oppressors”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/111 "2006-01-28T02:57:45Z")
And further, quit obfuscating. It’s not that they’re making “threats” of genocide. They’ve been acting on their plan as best they can. There’s a huge difference between a threat and [actual carnage, complete with a celebration after the fact.](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=10238) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/112 "2006-01-28T03:26:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just that they should be held to a totally different standard while Hamas has a stated goal of genocide. I am not saying a stated goal of genocide is a desirable thing, I am only saying that despite that stated goal, I have come to different conclusions than you have. > [@](#): > > False analogy. Sinn Fein wasn’t dedicated to genocide. > It’s really not that far out to ask that someone renounce their desire to exterminate you before you engage in diplomacy. Fair enough but Israel has been dealing with Hamas for quite a while, and will probably deal with Hamas at this point forward as well. Maybe they will remove the stated goal of genocide. > [@](#): > > Are you being dishonest by this point, or just not reading my posts? They have been making threats of genocide since **before** the '48 war. Also, don’t give me any of your bull about how you don’t see Israel as being worse than Palestine if you’re calling them “oppressors”. The Oppressor is whichever side has the upper hand. If the Palestinians had the upper hand, I’d be calling them the oppressors. Hamas has been making threats since before the 48 war? You might learn one day that people can disagree with you without being dishonest. Israel dealt with Hamas in the 60s and 70s as an alternative to Fatah. I think your knee is jerking all over the place, and I think that the stated goal of genocide is not a good thing, but there is talk and there is action, and meanwhile Israel has the upper hand and can afford to talk more moderately, whereas the actions of both sides have been telling me about the same thing. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/113 "2006-01-28T03:32:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > False analogy. Sinn Fein wasn’t dedicated to genocide. > It’s really not that far out to ask that someone renounce their desire to exterminate you before you engage in diplomacy. This is a complete non-starter both for Israel and Palestine. The world has observed that in both the Middle East and especially in Sri Lanka, suicide terrorism and desire for extermination of the opposition have yielded desirable concessions. Hamas cannot credibly commit to give up a tool that it and its constituency know is effective. If Hamas tries, it might lose its shirt just as Fatah did. Israel knows this as well. The very fact that Israel makes this demand is indicative of its lack of commitment to diplomacy. Demanding what one’s bargaining partner cannot credibly commit ends dialogue. Israel must accept Hamas’ genocidal rhetoric just as Hamas must accept Israel’s overwhelming military superiority and resistance to disarmament. Hamas has made at best incremental contributions towards exterminating Jews worldwide, and Israel has hardly performed any better in its global quest to rid the world of Palestinians. Considering the depth of historical acrimony between both sides, one must conclude that both sides are remarkably inept at actually killing each other. With that in mind, perhaps we should get over the inflammatory genocidal rhetoric and impossible demands. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/114 "2006-01-28T04:24:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I am not saying a stated goal of genocide is a desirable thing, I am only saying that despite that stated goal, I have come to different conclusions than you have. No. You’ve said that you hold Israel to a different standard because they’re militarily stronger than the Palestinians, whose goal is genocide. > [@mswas](#): > > Fair enough but Israel has been dealing with Hamas for quite a while, and will probably deal with Hamas at this point forward as well. Maybe they will remove the stated goal of genocide. As I already cited: > [@](#): > > “We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay (on the land), nor his ownership of any inch of land. . . . We are interested in restoring our full rights to return all the people of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust), which can not be given up.” > > (Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader and candidate to the Palestinian legislative council, Palestinian TV, January 17, 2006, Newsday) That was ten days ago. > [@mswas](#): > > The Oppressor is whichever side has the upper hand. Well you should let me know before you just make up definitions for words. Were the Allies the “oppressors” during the Battle of the Bulge? > [@mswas](#): > > Hamas has been making threats since before the 48 war? The Arab enemies of Israel have. Hamas’ rhetoric is not new. Nor are their supporters. > [@mswas](#): > > You might learn one day that people can disagree with you without being dishonest. Ya don’t say? Really? ~yawn~ You keep repeating that Hamas has only turned to genocide because they’ve had their back against a wall, but starting with Azam Pasha the enemies of Israel have been calling for genocide. You are also, still, unaware of the history of the region. Hamas’ actions were not when they had their back up against any wall. (Although they should certainly be put up against one.) [ > [@](#): > > 1995 > > Hamas and Islamic Jihad, continue to thwart the peace process and order a series of suicide bombings against Jews in the Gaza Strip. ]([http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleeast/gaza\_timeline.html](http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleeast/gaza_timeline.html)) > [@mswas](#): > > I think your knee is jerking all over the place And I think you’re a purple monkey with wings. Unsupported and absurd allegations are fun, aren’t they? Want to cite anything, at all, which is ‘knee jerking’ on my part? > [@mswas](#): > > and I think that the stated goal of genocide is not a good thing, but there is talk and there is action, Back to the dishonesty thing. And please don’t give me the purile and facile chiding about how people can disagree without being dishonest. As I’ve already pointed out, _they have taken actions to achieve their goal._ You might learn one day that you can argue your position without being dishonest. > [@Maeglin](#): > > This is a complete non-starter both for Israel and Palestine. That’d be laughable if you weren’t serious. Asking for someone to renounce their desire for genocide is a non-starter? How many nations on earth, exactly, have a stated policy of negotiating with terrorists? > [@Maeglin](#): > > The world has observed that in both the Middle East and especially in Sri Lanka, suicide terrorism and desire for extermination of the opposition have yielded desirable concessions. Well then the Israelis should certainly give into terrorism. Certainly. > [@Maeglin](#): > > Hamas cannot credibly commit to give up a tool that it and its constituency know is effective. If Hamas tries, it might lose its shirt just as Fatah did. This is absurd. If they commited to peace their economy would be helped and _that_ would be much more effective than the so far totally ineffective policy of terrorism. Your claims about the usefulness of terrorism are gainsaid by the fact that it has only provoked reprisals by Israel, precisely because Israel does not want to be seen as weak or giving in to terrorists. > [@Maeglin](#): > > Israel knows this as well. The very fact that Israel makes this demand is indicative of its lack of commitment to diplomacy. Lack of commitment to diplomacy? Is the word “Oslo” just four random letters put together? > [@Maeglin](#): > > Demanding what one’s bargaining partner cannot credibly commit ends dialogue. :dubious: And yet you think Israel can “credibly commit” to concessions in the face of terrorism? Why isn’t that a non-starter? These absurd double standards are really getting old. > [@Maeglin](#): > > Israel must accept Hamas’ genocidal rhetoric just as Hamas must accept Israel’s overwhelming military superiority and resistance to disarmament. Again, this is really getting absurd. Your obfuscation is ridiculous. “Rhetoric” does not involve blowing up resteraunts. And Israel shouldn’t disarm as they have been attacked since their founding. This bass ackwards double standard does nothing to solve the problem, only to become an apologist for genocide. > [@Maeglin](#): > > Hamas has made at best incremental contributions towards exterminating Jews worldwide, and Israel has hardly performed any better in its global quest to rid the world of Palestinians. That is a vile, vile lie. Israel has no plan of ridding the world of Palestinians, you should be ashamed of yourself for voicing such a disgusting falsehood. One side actually has a stated goal of genocide, one side does not. Muddying the water with these falsehoods does no good, at all. > [@Maeglin](#): > > Considering the depth of historical acrimony between both sides, one must conclude that both sides are remarkably inept at actually killing each other. Or that you’re simply casting about slanderous and untrue assertions. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians they could’ve done so a hundred times over. The technology existed as far back as Dresden. > [@Maeglin](#): > > With that in mind, perhaps we should get over the inflammatory genocidal rhetoric and impossible demands. Yeah, impossible demands like “we will not negotiate with terrorists”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/115 "2006-01-28T04:29:28Z")
It isn’t that asking Hamas to accept Israel’s existance and to renounce violence is that far out, it just isn’t go to happen right now. Those are Hamas’ only bargaining chips when they do enter into real negotiations - the ability to deliver on real security in a lasting way and recognition of Israel with agreed upon borders and agreements. It is reasonable to expect them to deliver security currently, but for them to promise they will do that forever gives them nothing at the table. Yes, they have been terrorists and murderers. So was Arafat and Israel tried to deal with him. If they can deliver on security then they should be talked to. If they engage in violent actions then reprisals should be harsh … and here I do not mean just militarily but in terms of economic actions by the worlds’ governments. But to totally isolate them now is foolish. It gives them no incentive to behave responsibly and pushes them into Iran’s arms as the only option potentially open. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/116 "2006-01-28T04:49:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No. > You’ve said that you hold Israel to a different standard because they’re militarily stronger than the Palestinians, whose goal is genocide. I said I hold them to different standards because they are in different situations. I choose not to take the naive route where we can hold both sides to the same standards because the standard for one isn’t applicable to the other. > [@](#): > > Well you should let me know before you just make up definitions for words. Were the Allies the “oppressors” during the Battle of the Bulge? Are you really asking me this question? Do you not know the difference between keeping people isolated in refugee camps for decades and fighting a battle? > [@](#): > > The Arab enemies of Israel have. Hamas’ rhetoric is not new. Nor are their supporters. I see, so you are one of those people that can’t tell Arabs apart huh? Charlie Manson was a mass murderer so you must be too, because you’re both Americans right? > [@](#): > > You keep repeating that Hamas has only turned to genocide because they’ve had their back against a wall, but starting with Azam Pasha the enemies of Israel have been calling for genocide. So what you are implying is that Azam Pasha and Hamas are the same thing? > [@](#): > > You are also, still, unaware of the history of the region. Hamas’ actions were not when they had their back up against any wall. (Although they should certainly be put up against one.) There are certainly things I don’t know about it. > [@](#): > > That’d be laughable if you weren’t serious. Asking for someone to renounce their desire for genocide is a non-starter? How many nations on earth, exactly, have a stated policy of negotiating with terrorists? It’s a bargaining chip for Hamas who has very few. > [@](#): > > Yeah, impossible demands like “we will not negotiate with terrorists”. When you label all Palestinians as terrorists, then who do you suggest they negotiate with? Or do you not think peace is desirable? You do of course realize that the only alternatives to negotiating with terrorists are either perpetual war or genocide right? How would you achieve peace without negotiating with terrorists hmm? Besides Terrorist is a subjective term, the Israelis have certainly terrorized the Palestinians. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/117 "2006-01-28T05:18:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Uzi** What about Iran where right before the “Axis of Evil” remark there was a moderate president Mohammed Khatami and a strong moderate reform movement amongst the youth who happen to outnumber the older generation by quite a bit. Then the “Axis of Evil” comment was made and the fundamentalists were able to sway things in their direction. So, by calling them one of the members of the Axis of Evil the Iranians decided to prove Bush right by doing the one thing that would prove he was correct? I guess that fits with what I know of human nature. Consider myself convinced. I think the same could be said somewhat of what happened in the US in response to European comments during the last Presidential election, IIRC, and what the liberals tried to pull in the Canadian election just past against the conservatives (which probably partly worked). Just goes to show that ‘democracy just doesn’t work’[\homer] ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/118 "2006-01-28T05:21:34Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > So, by calling them one of the members of the Axis of Evil the Iranians decided to prove Bush right by doing the one thing that would prove he was correct? I guess that fits with what I know of human nature. Consider myself convinced. I think the same could be said somewhat of what happened in the US in response to European comments during the last Presidential election, IIRC, and what the liberals tried to pull in the Canadian election just past against the conservatives (which probably partly worked). Just goes to show that ‘democracy just doesn’t work’[\homer] Well if you’ll recall, right after labelling three states “The Axis of Evil” we invaded one. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/119 "2006-01-28T06:26:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I said I hold them to different standards because they are in different situations. I choose not to take the naive route where we can hold both sides to the same standards because the standard for one isn’t applicable to the other. No two situations are ever the same, but if you have integrity you can say that any civilian targeted violence is wrong. > [@mswas](#): > > Are you really asking me this question? Do you not know the difference between keeping people isolated in refugee camps for decades and fighting a battle? What on earth are you talking about? The people who have kept the Palestinians in refugee camps are the Arabs, not the Israelis. I know it’s probably too much to ask, but please learn something about the subject you’re talking about before you make such claims in the future. The Jordanians refused to grant citizenship to any Palestinians living in the West Bank. The Saudis refused to grant citizenship to any Palestnians under orders from the Arab League. Up until 2004 Lebanon had barred them from owning property or working in many jobs. Again, please learn something before you post more things that are simply out and out false. [ > [@](#): > > The At the time the Israelis did not expect the refugees to be a major issue; they thought the Arab states would resettle the majority and some compromise on the remainder could be worked out in the context of an overall settlement. The Arabs were no more willing to compromise in 1949, however, than they had been in 1947. In fact, they unanimously rejected the UN resolution. > [snip] > UNRWA had little chance of success, however, because it sought to solve a political problem using an economic approach. By the mid 1950s, it was evident neither the refugees nor the Arab states were prepared to cooperate on the large-scale development projects originally foreseen by the Agency as a means of alleviating the Palestinians’ situation. The Arab governments and the refugees themselves were unwilling to contribute to any plan that could be interpreted as fostering resettlement. They preferred to cling to their interpretation of Resolution 194, which they believed would eventually result in repatriation. > > While Jewish refugees from Arab countries received no international assistance, Palestinians received millions of dollars through UNRWA. Initially, the United States contributed $25 million and Israel nearly $3 million. The total Arab pledges amounted to approximately $600,000. For the first 20 years, the United States provided more than two-thirds of the funds, while the Arab states continued to contribute a tiny fraction. Israel donated more funds to UNRWA than most Arab states. The Saudis did not match Israel’s contribution until 1973; Kuwait and Libya, not until 1980. As recently as 1994, Israel gave more to UNRWA than all Arab countries except Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Morocco. In 2003, the United States contributed more than $134 million of UNRWA’s $326 million budget (41%). All of the Arab countries combined contributed less than $11 million (3%) and $7.8 million of that was from Saudi Arabia, meaning the rest of the Arab world contributed less than $3 million (1%). > > [snip] > Israel could not simply agree to allow all Palestinians to return, but consistently sought a solution to the refugee problem. Israel’s position was expressed by David BenGurion (August 1, 1948): > > ``` > When the Arab states are ready to conclude a peace treaty with Israel this question will come up for constructive solution as part of the general settlement, and with due regard to our counterclaims in respect of the destruction of Jewish life and property, the long-term interest of the Jewish and Arab populations, the stability of the State of Israel and the durability of the basis of peace between it and its neighbors, the actual position and fate of the Jewish communities in the Arab countries, the responsibilities of the Arab governments for their war of aggression and their liability for reparation, will all be relevant in the question whether, to what extent, and under what conditions, the former Arab residents of the territory of Israel should be allowed to return. > > ``` > > [snip] > > The implied danger of repatriation did not prevent Israel from allowing some refugees to return and offering to take back a substantial number as a condition for signing a peace treaty. In 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return; agreed to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (eventually released in 1953); offered to pay compensation for abandoned lands and, finally, agreed to repatriate 100,000 refugees. > > The Arabs rejected all the Israeli compromises. They were unwilling to take any action that might be construed as recognition of Israel. They made repatriation a precondition for negotiations, something Israel rejected. The result was the confinement of the refugees in camps. > > [snip] > > After the Six-Day War, Israel allowed some West Bank Arabs to return. In 1967, more than 9,000 families were reunited and, by 1971, Israel had readmitted 40,000 refugees. By contrast, in July 1968, Jordan prohibited persons intending to remain in the East Bank from emigrating from the West > Bank and Gaza. > > [snip] > > The UN discussions on refugees had begun in the summer of 1948, before Israel had completed its military victory; consequently, the Arabs still believed they could win the war and allow the refugees to return triumphant. The Arab position was expressed by Emile Ghoury, the Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee: > > ``` > It is inconceivable that the refugees should be sent back to their homes while they are occupied by the Jews, as the latter would hold them as hostages and maltreat them. The very proposal is an evasion of responsibility by those responsible. It will serve as a first step towards Arab recognition of the State of Israel and partition. > > ``` > > [snip] > > One reason for maintaining this position was the conviction that the refugees could ultimately bring about Israel’s destruction, a sentiment expressed by Egyptian Foreign Minister Muhammad Salah al-Din: > > ``` > It is well-known and understood that the Arabs, in demanding the return of the refugees to Palestine, mean their return as masters of the Homeland and not as slaves. With a greater clarity, they mean the liquidation of the State of Israel (Al-Misri, October 11, 1949). > > ``` > > After the 1948 war, Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip and its more than 200,000 inhabitants, but refused to allow the Palestinians into Egypt or permit them to move elsewhere. > > Although demographic figures indicated ample room for settlement existed in Syria, Damascus refused to consider accepting any refugees, except those who might refuse repatriation. Syria also declined to resettle 85,000 refugees in 1952-54, though it had been offered international funds to pay for the project. Iraq was also expected to accept a large number of refugees, but proved unwilling. Lebanon insisted it had no room for the Palestinians. In 1950, the UN tried to resettle 150,000 refugees from Gaza in Libya, but was rebuffed by Egypt. ]([http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html)) > [@mswas](#): > > I see, so you are one of those people that can’t tell Arabs apart huh? Are you ignorant, or just obfuscatory and dishonest? I’ve said nothing about all the Arabs being the same, and it’s rather pathetic that you need to create a strawman to beat up rather than address my actual point. Sad. Again, the rhetoric is not new, the supporters of Hamas are the same people who have supported the wars against Israel. These are both facts. Ignore them and obfuscate away at your leisure. Some facts in case you’re interested in debating honestly. [ > [@](#): > > The Hamas social-welfare activists running these organizations > are often closely tied to the group’s terror cells, or are > themselves current or former terror-cell members. Consider just > three of the FBI’s many examples: > > - Fadel Muhammad Salah Hamdan, a member of the Ramallah Zakat > Committee, was “directly connected with the planning of suicide > attacks and the spiritual preparation of those about to commit > suicide attacks, including the Mahane Yehuda attack in July 1997.” > > - Ahmed Salim Ahmed Saltana, head of the Jenin Zakat Committee, > was involved in transferring bomb-making materials for the > preparation of explosives in 1992, participated in a car bombing > in 1993, and recruited young men working for the charity > committee into Hamas. > > - Khalil Ali Rashad Dar Rashad, an associated member of the > Orphan Care Association in Bethlehem, was known to provide > shelter and assistance to Hamas fugitives, including Hamas bomb > maker Muhi a-Din al-Sharif and Hassan Salameh, the commander > behind the string of suicide bus bombings in February-March > > 1. > > More recently, when Israeli forces raided the Tulkarm zakat > committee in April 2002 they found material lauding Hamas > suicide attacks and records showing the International Islamic > Relief Organization, a Saudi charity deeply involved in terror > financing, donated at least $280,000 to the Tulkarm Zakat > Committee and other Palestinian organizations linked to Hamas. > > Such evidence led David Aufhauser, general counsel to the > Treasury Department and chair of the National Security Council’s > policy coordinating committee on terrorist financing, > to describe the logic of making distinctions between terrorist > groups’ charitable and military wings as “sophistry.” By his > assessment, “the idea that there’s a firewall between the two > defies common sense.” ]([http://www.jr.co.il/articles/politics/bloodmoney.txt](http://www.jr.co.il/articles/politics/bloodmoney.txt)) [ > [@](#): > > In 1948, the United Nations, with the strong support of the United States, partitioned the land then called Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. The surrounding Arab countries, however, rejected this partition and attacked Israel. They viewed the partition as another case of European colonialism, with Jews displacing Arabs and taking land that they had occupied for more than a thousand years. But Israel defended its new borders and even gained territory. > > In 1967, Nasser asked the U.N. to remove its troops along the Egypt-Israel border, and he blockaded the Straits of Tiran to prevent goods from reaching Israel. When Egypt and Syria mobilized their troops in preparation for war, Israel attacked. This war lasted a mere six days and resulted in Israel occupying Egyptian land all the way to the Suez Canal as well as Jordan’s West Bank, Syria’s Golan Heights, and East Jerusalem. In 1973, Egypt and Syria attempted to defeat Israel in yet another war, but failed again. > > The failures showed that the Arab states were too weak to overcome Israel, which was far more advanced economically and militarily. A new entity, the nationalistic Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), stepped in to take up the war against Israel. Founded in 1964 by Arab states, the PLO was set up as an umbrella organization to bring together the many Palestinian groups that had formed in Arab lands. The PLO set two goals: destroying Israel and establishing a secular, democratic state in its place. It never favored an Islamist state. Initially, the PLO launched guerilla attacks on Israeli military targets. But then factions of it started using terrorism–kidnappings, shootings, bombings, and hijackings. The two most notorious attacks were probably the hostage-taking and murder of 11 Israeli athletes during the 1972 Munich Olympics and the 1985 hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro and murder of a disabled American tourist on board. ]([http://www.crf-usa.org/terror/islamist\_terror.htm](http://www.crf-usa.org/terror/islamist_terror.htm)) > [@mswas](#): > > So what you are implying is that Azam Pasha and Hamas are the same thing? You’re not real good at ferreting out implications, are you? Here, let me help, the implication is: “starting with Azam Pasha the enemies of Israel have been calling for genocide.” I know, rocket science. The implication is exactly what I said in plain black and white text. Amazing. More facts in case you’re intested in debating honestly, just in case. [ > [@](#): > > What are Hamas’ origins? > > Hamas grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood, a religious and political organization founded in Egypt with branches throughout the Arab world. > [snip] > What does Hamas believe and what are its goals? > > Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raise “the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.” Its leaders have called suicide attacks the “F-16” of the Palestinian people. Hamas believes “peace talks will do no good,” Rantisi said in April 2004. “We do not believe we can live with the enemy.” > [snip] > Much of Hamas’ funding comes from Palestinian expatriates, as well as from private donors in Saudi Arabia and other oil-rich Persian Gulf states. Iran also provides significant support, which some diplomats say could amount to $20 million to $30 million per year. In addition, some Muslim charities in the United States, Canada, and Western Europe funnel money into Hamas-backed social service groups. ]([http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/hamas\_palestinian\_islamic\_jihad.html#2](http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/hamas_palestinian_islamic_jihad.html#2)) > [@mswas](#): > > There are certainly things I don’t know about it. Ya don’t say? Maybe you want to learn about them before holding forth in a debate? > [@mswas](#): > > It’s a bargaining chip for Hamas who has very few. Absurd. Governments negotiate all the time without the threat of extermination. And most governments do not negotiate with terrorists. > [@mswas](#): > > When you label all Palestinians as terrorists, then who do you suggest they negotiate with? Cite for **anywhere at all** where I said all Palestinians are terrorists? Can’t do it, can you? Made it up, didn’t you? > [@mswas](#): > > Or do you not think peace is desirable? [You’re not real good at reading before spouting off, are ya?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7041157&postcount=80) > [@mswas](#): > > You do of course realize that the only alternatives to negotiating with terrorists are either perpetual war or genocide right? Hah. Yes, those are the only options… because you say so. How about global sanctions until they renounce terrorism? How about substantial economic rewards once they do? Pfft. Take your fallacy of the excluded middle and go out dancing with your strawmen. > [@mswas](#): > > How would you achieve peace without negotiating with terrorists hmm? Gee, I have no idea. > [@mswas](#): > > Besides Terrorist is a subjective term, the Israelis have certainly terrorized the Palestinians. Again playing fast and loose with the facts. The IDF does not deliberately target and murder civilians. Various palestinian groups do deliberately target and murder Israeli civilians. But as you said above, you’re pathalogicaly unable to hold an objective standard and declare that such behavior is wrong since the two nations aren’t in exactly the same situation. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687/120 "2006-01-28T06:37:38Z")
Just to fight some more ignorance, especially that evinced by the claim that Palestinian terrorist groups and Arab states are totally seperate and you have to be a racist to think otherwise. [ > [@](#): > > Iran’s leader Ali Khamenei: “… we regard Palestine as an organ of our body, and the support of the Palestinian nation is pride for the Iranian people… The Palestinian people must continue the blessed Jihad and its standing against the enemies of Islam… The Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah forces must continue the struggle in a united way… But, indeed, the only solution [to the crisis in the region] is the elimination of the root of this crisis, which is the Zionist regime imposed on the region.” (Khabar TV, Iran, 20 October 2000) > > President Bashar Assad President Bashar Assad in the Arab Summit in Beirut: “As far as an occupier is concerned, there is no distinction between soldiers and civilians… There is a distinction between armed and unarmed, but in Israel everyone is armed. In any case, we adopted the following concept: resistance to occupation is a legitimate right.” (FTV, Lebanon, 27 March 2002) > > Damascus Radio: “Syria has turned its land into a training camp, a safe haven and an arms depot for the Palestinian revolutionaries.” (1 January 2002) > “The magnificent and unique suicide operation in Rishon Le Ziyyon is a practical declaration of the way to liberate the land from Israeli colonialism.” > (9 May 2002) ]([http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000\_2009/2002/9/Iran%20and%20Syria%20as%20Strategic%20Support%20for%20Palestinia](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/9/Iran%20and%20Syria%20as%20Strategic%20Support%20for%20Palestinia)) As a caveat, I still have lots of family who are descended from ancestors who settled in Rishon Le Ziyyon and still live there. I had to call them and check to see if any of them had been blown to pieces in that attack. Luckily none had been. Just to put my cards on the table. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-wins/341687.md?page=7)