This seems a little disingenuous. The Palestinians (a great many of them, at least) were displaced from their land and livelihoods. They might not have been independent under British or Ottoman rule, but there was certainly something that they had that was taken from them by the Zionists.
For an accurate view of the conflict and its consequences, go here.
I vaguely remember reading CNN news analysis as far back as a year or two ago that said what several posters have written here: Hamas is popular in Palestine because they’re able to provide basic community services that the government is not, and if that popularity results in votes, they will have to become more moderate because they will finally be accountable to someone. I can only hope that’s what happens. The reasoning seems perfectly logical, but it’s Israel/Palestine.
I’m not sure I think the removal of Fatah is a “missed opportunity.” They didn’t seem to be moving things forward that much; I felt they were largely impotent in the last few yeares and Israel was forced to make “painful concessions” (in Sharon’s words). That was what was moving things forward, from my perspective.
Hamas won the election, plain and simple. We (the U.S.,) make a lot of noise about freedom and elections and democracy. Now that someone “we” didn’t want has won, it’s time to put up or shut up. We either talk with Hamas and try to make some mutually acceptable agreements, or be exposed for a country of lying hypocrites. Supporting the democratic process means you support it even if it didn’t go your way.
Agreed, but explain why such a beneficent organization is labeled a terrorist organization.
Speaking of people who dislike Jews, Adolph Hitler was elected. Does that give legitimacy to his government?
No one is talking about trying to remove Hamas from power. That’s what democracy is about you know, being able to choose who you want to represent you. Supporting that right does not mean that you then agree with whatever the decision is. I support the right of the Palestinians to make their own choices, and to live with the consequences of those choices for the better or for the worse. If one of those consequences is that they get isolated from the rest of the world, then that was their right to choose and to live with. Your logic would imply that because I support free speech that I should go out and help a KKK group organize a rally and would be a hypocrite if I did not. I can and do support free spech and the democratic process, and for each I can disagree with and fight against the results.
Not exactly . . .
Personally I’d be happy with a more pragmatic approach. There’s no need for us to wait until Hamas agrees to renounce violence and acknowledge Israel. Now, the violence bit is possible but even then, the actual renouncing bit isn’t the important part; it’s the not using it that matters. I have no problem with Hamas publicly stated that they retain the right to resort to violence… as long as they don’t actually do it. Much like how the US has always never renounced the right to a first strike nuclear attack, the important part isn’t what we do or do not reserve the right to, but what we actually do. Of course, up until now, much of what Hamas has done has been violent so… well there you go.
Likewise with acknowledging Israel’s right to exist and giving up the Right of Return. I think far too much effort is made trying to wrest these concessions from Palestinians. Who cares whether or not they maintain that Israel has no real right to exist, the important thing is whether or not they are actively trying to end that notional existence [which of course, so far they have been]. It doesn’t matter if they maintain that they have a right to live where their house used to be regardless if whether that’s in your living room or not, as long as they don’t actually try to move there.
Both sides want so badly for the other side to make a concession and give up one of their primary tenants which I suppose is natural given that there has been so much blood between them. It seems however, that sometimes more effort is given to these ideological disputes then to the practical ones i.e. you stop shooting us, we’ll stop shooting you, you go to your side and ignore us, we’ll go to our side and ignore you. Who knows, I know it isn’t this simple and maybe this is exactly how the negotiations have gone in the past when they’ve broken down but it bugs me every time I hear a public official state that they “won’t do x until they do z.”
Speaking of people named Hitler, was the guy featured in this N.Y. Times article elected Wednesday?
*"The candidate’s name is Jamal Abu Roub, but everyone here calls him Hitler because, well, that is the name he has answered to quite comfortably since he was a teenager.
Mr. Roub, 40, is a leader of the militant Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades in this turbulent corner of the West Bank, and has spent the past five years leading his ragtag band of gunmen in frequent clashes with the Israeli military. Mr. Roub’s deeds include hauling a Palestinian suspected of collaborating with Israel and of molesting his own daughters into a town square, where the man was shot to death.
Now Mr. Roub is a candidate for the Palestinian Parliament and is virtually assured of winning a seat in elections next Wednesday…In a July 2004 episode captured on camera, Mr. Roub and his Al Aksa gunmen dragged a Palestinian man into the central square of Qabatiya, Mr. Roub’s hometown, a few miles south of Jenin.
The suspect was accused of collaborating with Israel and sexually abusing his own daughters, and the Al Aksa men asked the crowd what should be done. When the crowd replied, “Kill him immediately,” the gunmen riddled the man with bullets."*
I believe the IRA analogy stands. In the depths of the Troubles, it was utterly unthinkable that the IRA would accept anything less than a united sovereign Ireland. Lo and behold, after Sinn Fein gained a powerful electoral mandate and years of difficult negotiation, we found that saying this was really only a tactic to gain as much from the real compromise deal as possible.
The PLO removed the call for Israel’s destruction from its charter after negotiation, despite all kinds of Paisleyite rhetoric that it would never ever ever do so. Why couldn’t Hamas?
Just some facts:
[
](http://www.adl.org/main_israel/hamas_own_words.htm)
[
](http://www.adl.org/main_israel/hamas_own_words.htm)
On the percent of Palestinian society who supports the murder of Israeli civilians within the green line:
[
](http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/1910.cfm)
(This figure, by the way, generally holds steady even during non-intifada times)
On the stated goal of genocide during and after the '48 war:
[
](http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001_article)
[
](http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001_article)
[
](http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001_article)
On who is most responsible for Palestinian refugees and loss of territory:
[
](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/031103/3anti_6.htm)
[
](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/031103/3anti_6.htm)
[
](http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=8324&repository=0001_article)
[
](http://www.varchive.org/obs/481130.htm)
[
](http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf)
Now, I’m actually a bit surprised that anybody is surprised at Hamas’ election. I’ve seen it coming for a while now. I hope it will mellow their tone, but I doubt it. More likely than not they will continue to gain massive ammounts of foreign funds and continue to provide support services for the population. It would be nice to see Hamas repudiate the RoR, accept Israel’s right to exist, renounce civilian target bombingts, and negotiate in good faith. I just don’t think it’ll happen.
Oh, and on the notion of what exactly we call Israel’s wall, I find it highly amusing that a poster who has championed the cold blooded murder of a pregnant woman and her children as ‘justified’ will now quibble over semantics. Likewise that the same poster would excuse deliberate murder of civilians of one nationality while pointedly ignoring any and all requests to define why such behavior wouldn’t be allowed for other nations speaks loudly to his real intent. Quaint.
Hamas can huff and it can puff all it wants but it will never be in a position to realise its rhetoric and I suspect, like the IRA, a large segment knows it and will settle for a lot less. That is the attitude Israel and the International community needs to encourage with carrot and stick.
It can recommence terrorist activities (now 11 months without a Hamas bombing BTW), bringing about swingeing retaliation, or it can face up to the responsibilities of government.
History seems to suggest that the responsibilities of government can be mellowing.
Palestinians aren’t devils, they are people living a hellish, brutalised existence. Their anger and rage won’t be ameliorated by making that life even more hellish.
It’s actions not words that count and if progress can be made with carrot and stick and a HAMAS govt can say, peace now (but we’ll sweep you into the sea in 60 years time) then I’d say ‘sticks and stones, you and whose army’ and take it as a step forward worth making.
A generation of peace, a generation of economic development and the rage will fade.
And if it does not? A palestinian state can only survive on the whim of its regional super-power neighbour, who has the backing of the USA. Israel can hurt Palestine a helluva lot more than the reverse and after a generation I’ll bet Palestinians won’t see a hopeless war that will see them reduced to misery as a worthwhile thing.
I wonder if the Netherlands keep supporting Hamas.
Now that they’re in power, I’d imagine they no longer need our ‘welfare’ money.
I have a question.
I was talking with my brother about all those good things Hamas has done. You know, building schools and stuff.
Does that mean that the unemployment figures [72%] actually have gone down?
Also: I’d appreciate a link to what you wrote here mswas:
I don’t know where you live, but imagine if you will that your next door neighbor has declared you have no right to exist and is going to force you off your land and kill you if necessary to do so. They have attempted to do this many times in the past by injuring and killing some of your relatives and proclaim publicly that they will continue to do so. They get some of their members elected to the local council, so you don’t call the police because they now have something else to occupy their time? Yes, no? Okay, lets remove the part of the scenario that they have done any actual injuries to you. Would it matter to you if your neighbor continued to say they will kill you and drive you off your land?
Say it with me:
‘Land Grab’
But you knew that already, in keeping tightly on message.
The next stage is to employ the refrain ‘facts on the ground.’ Discipline, it’s a wonderful, wonderful thing.
The answer to this question is found at the source you rely on: CIDI: The Peace Process
Say, isn’t it about time for ephraim to start a thread explaining why Mahmoud Zahar is the Third Beast of Revelation? 
Zev, Sal, Finn, and anyone I forgot:
Can we please agree to leave the debate about Israel’s creation out of debates on the current situation? It can be a forever digression and has been the subject of so many past threads … neither side was pristine and the issue here is how to move forward. Sal, this request is especially for you, because you seem to start these off. At least start a seperate thread and read through some of the histories as seen from the opposing POV before posting (ie be familiar with the Mufti of Jerusalem, early massacres of Jewish towns, the three nos, etc). But for all of us, can we please accept that there is an Israel that will not be going away (even if you believe that its creation was a mistake) and that there is a Palestinian people currently in existence who percieve themselves to be wronged, and who are currently living in dire conditions without a state of their own (even if you believe that such an identity is a recent creation of the last 60 years and that their current dire conditiion is more a result of Arab actions than of Jewish ones)? These are the facts, let’s live with them and try to move forward from them, okay?
So what now? I’ve had a day or two to think about it (and a few editorials read) and have come to the following predictions:
Israel’s side -
Olmert plays to the hard side of the fence before the election. Polls show that half the Israeli public would accept dealing with Hamas but almost half does not. Tactically he needs to undercut Bibi before anything else. Labour wnning a few more seats doesn’t hurt him long term as much. He can soften a little afterwards and have that be accepted by most. Assuming Kadima wins, he then has no overt contact with Hamas, but continues down two paths simultaneously. He finishes the fence and prepares for unilateral disengagement all the while withdrawing settlements in step with the terms of the Bush Roadmap as part of previously agreed upon bilateral terms to move forward. No direct negotiations but back channels and observation as to if Hamas follows through with the terms on their side. If they do, and if they prevet attacks (even if they overtly state that it is a tactical decision to have a period of quiet in service of the long term goal of Israel’s destruction) then use some acceptable back channels and indirect negotiations about coming to the table officially on a more acceptable final status.
US side-
Continue funding Palestinian services even if you need to find back channels to do it so long as Hamas honors the ceasefire and attempts to enforce it on other Arab players. As the a NYTimes editorialist quoted Peres having said: “We are not fighting against a name,” he said. “We are fighting against a situation. If the situation changes, then what difference does a name make?”
Hamas-
They need to deliver on a cleaned house and basic services for their people. I do not get the impression that this was a vote for Islamic fundamentalism or for attacking Israel but against Fatah impotance and incompentance. If they prove to be the same then Fatah will be back soon. Negotiating with Israel is lower priority for them than basic services provision. They will honor the ceasefire if only because Israeli retaliation and isolation from the world would make accomplishing that goal impossible. If the fence does not appear to be a land grab and settlements do indeed come out (even as part of a unilateral Israeli process, they will declare that a victory for them and that the Israelis are in retreat. After a few years in power and struggling to meet their goals of basic service provision, they will come to the table through back channels over final status negotiations.
Fatah- will stay low and hope for Hamas to fail. Become a real opposition party.
Hey, I’m a dreamer.
(Sev, bluntly put that land aint worth that much for as to grab … other than for security needs. Boy, Israel really needs a bit more underirrigated dirt. The focus on a few sq kms here or there is shortsided, negotiations to be meaningful need to focus on control over water resources, shared tax revenues, economic development, how to deliver security.)
Say it with me: deliberately targeting civilians inside the green line time and time and time again with the virtually full support of the PA and Palestinian society.
Say it with me: any Israeli response is demonized except doing nothing and allowing themselves to be exterminated.
Say it with me: Peace and land-for-peace has been offered numerous times, and the deliberate and calculated response has always been civilian-targeted terrorism.
Right back atcha.
“They’re defending their civilians from being slaughtered by an organization whose stated goal is genocide, and in the process their wall goes too far into Palestinian territory. The bastards!”
Or to ask the Israelis to submit to extermination.
Willful ignorance, it’s a wonderful, wonderful thing.
Sure, I just wanted the facts out there, especially as they’ve been touched on.
Sure thing. I’d be the first to support a viable two state solution which would enhance the economy of both states and allow the Palestinians, already one of the most highly educated people in the ME, to flourish. I just think that having an organization whose stated goal is genocide be their leaders is not the best way to accomplish that.
That’s the real catch, I suppose. If it happens I’ll be thrilled, but I do not have high hopes.
Are you sure? If Hamas gets the public works in order, and still persues its genocidal campaign, do you really think that Palestinian society will throw them out?
From your mouth to OG’s ear. More likely is that Hamas will continue as it has done and scapegoat Israel for any problems while continuing the tradition of indoctrination and murder. But hey, I’m a cynic. Which is part of why I wasn’t surprised that Hamas was in, and was kinda surprised that others were, themselves, surprised. Ah well.