FinnAgain How can I possibly argue with that sort of jingoism? You’re right the Israelis have the moral superiority, just as all ‘civilized’ nations have had over whatever underdog they were fighting at the time. There ain’t nothing to be said, because you don’t want to give the other side of the issue much thought.
CitizenBob I was always a big fan of Grendel.
Erek
Jingoism? I do not think that word means what you think it means. Besides, you could argue with it by being factual and having an understanding of history of the current situation int he region.
No.
They have moral superiority just as everybody trying to avoid being exterminated has.
Check your crystal ball Kreskin. As evinced by your blatantly wrong statement about this being something recent due to their having their ‘backs against a wall’ you evidently might have thought a bit about it, but don’t really know anything about the situation. I’ve both thought about it and done my research.
There is the simple fact that genocide is never justified and if attempted you immediately lose any claim to a moral position, let alone a moral high ground. If, in the process of your attempted genocide, you take more casaulties than those you’re trying to butcher then you get what you deserved.
It’s funny that the Palestinians, who are largely commited to genocide, often call the Israelis Nazis. Check some of Hamas’ statements which call for the extermination of Jews anywhere on earth.
Why would anyone’s meddling cause someone to vote for fundamentalists if you didn’t have the temperment to do so in the first place?
Hamas may have found themselves in a Democratic briar pit. After the election, they begged the current government to stay on. No dice. Now they’ve asked Fatah to form a coalition with them. No dice. They’re left with the whole bag.
This is going to make it tough for them to play the ‘good cop/bad cop’ schtick they’ve been doing for years, in which the ‘official’ Palestinian government promises peace, but Israel gets attacked anyway, because well, they can’t control those Hamas guys, you know.
The worst-case scenario might have been Hamas winning 30-40% of the vote - enough to give them more power, but little enough that they could continue the rocket attacks and suicide attacks while the majority government pretends it can’t do a thing about it.
So now the Palestinians have overwhelmingly voted in Hamas. If they continue what they have been doing, it will be an act of war. So it’s either straighten up and fly right, or face much more serious consequences for their obnoxious behaviour.
Because the fundamentalists sound justified when they say, “See the infidels want to destroy Islam, they continue to bomb us, they support the corrupt Saudi Regime, they want to steal our oil so that they can continue to live their gluttonous western lives.”
FinnAgain I’m by no means an expert but I did study the issue quite a bit as I was married to an Israeli and I studied it so that I could understand her culture. I’ve known both Israelis and Arabs as well as people who have been EMTs in Concentration camps in Palestine. I can’t come to the same conclusions that you have come to, I’m sorry. I won’t oversimplify the issue by judging the Palestinians by the same criteria as the Israelis, quite simply because the Israelis have the upper hand by a wide margin. I know what it’s like to be backed into a corner and to say things that are pretty extreme in order to bolster my position against someone who can overwhelm me.
There’s a saying in the ghetto, “The one who rules the hood isn’t the strongest, isn’t the toughest, isn’t the fastest, isn’t the smartest, it’s the craziest.”, and I have found that to be true. No one wants to pick on the guy who’s willing to go more quickly to the nuclear option. It’s a tactic that’s very common when one develops a siege mentality. It’s how people behave in prison, and the situation of the Palestinians is very similar to that of the Prison populations. So Hamas is the biggest gang in their cell block, because they’re the most willing to take it to the mats.
Erek
Oversimplify?
You’re kidding right? Genocide becomes okay if it’s Palestinians doing it? I am always baffled by this tactic used by genocide apologists. They judge Israel by a harsher standard than those who are attempting genocide, and demand that Israel play nice-nice while their civilians are being targeted for ethnic cleansing.
Quite frankly you lose any solid position in a debate if you refuse to hold nations to the same standard.
Cops have the upper hand over criminals by a wide margin, too. Does that mean if a bunch of criminals go around to the homes of police officers and murder their families you’d refuse to apply objective standards?
Again: this has been their position since before '48 when they had overwhelming military superiority.
Funny, the entire time I’ve been in Yemen I’ve yet to hear anyone complain about the corrupt Saudi Regime. Nor have I heard about them wanting to steal our oil. Most know that the oil is sold and money is given in return. They aren’t stupid. No, IMHO, people vote for fundamentalists because that is who they want to vote for because it matches their beliefs.
Actually, and this is a bit optimistic, but I’m looking forward to the Hamas government. Fatah’s been looting for aeons, and now someone has to pay for things, build roads, and so on. Hamas is going to get either rich or responsible, and either tends to erode fanaticism.
If we’re very lucky, they may take care of their people first. If they don’t? If they continue to act as terrorists… it becomes war. Not terror anymore, because they’re running their country, it’s warfare. And war is something that the Israelis can win.
FinnAgain I’m going to take my ball and go home if you can’t understand that I am not saying the Israelis are worse than the Palestinians. Your logic is kind of like the logic where the British wanted the IRA to disarm before they’d negotiate with Sinn Fein. What I see is a bunch of people trapped in a situation they deem as hopeless and lashing out at their oppressors by threats of genocide.
Uzi What about Iran where right before the “Axis of Evil” remark there was a moderate president Mohammed Khatami and a strong moderate reform movement amongst the youth who happen to outnumber the older generation by quite a bit. Then the “Axis of Evil” comment was made and the fundamentalists were able to sway things in their direction.
Evils have been perpetrated by both sides, and I’m not going to pick a side in this issue, and I’m going to point out that neither side has the morally superior position. The Israelis sold their righteousness out years ago. I can sympathize but that doesn’t mean I’m going to succumb to jingoism. The reality is that Hamas is one of the only organizations that was doing shit for the Palestinians and they elected them for that. Democracy is a bitch when the majority votes in a way you don’t like. But isn’t that what we are fighting for? We’re fighting for democracy over there right? Well eat your shit and like it, because that’s democracy in the middle east.
I’m holding out to see what Hamas does. Who knows, in ten years they might soften their position a bit if things start going well. We’re not going to kill our way out of the terrorist problem, eventually we need to sit down and start working with them, that’s what peace is going to take, get used to it if you don’t want your children’s children living in the same fear that you are.
Erek
Just that they should be held to a totally different standard while Hamas has a stated goal of genocide.
False analogy. Sinn Fein wasn’t dedicated to genocide.
It’s really not that far out to ask that someone renounce their desire to exterminate you before you engage in diplomacy.
Are you being dishonest by this point, or just not reading my posts? They have been making threats of genocide since before the '48 war. Also, don’t give me any of your bull about how you don’t see Israel as being worse than Palestine if you’re calling them “oppressors”.
And further, quit obfuscating. It’s not that they’re making “threats” of genocide. They’ve been acting on their plan as best they can. There’s a huge difference between a threat and actual carnage, complete with a celebration after the fact.
I am not saying a stated goal of genocide is a desirable thing, I am only saying that despite that stated goal, I have come to different conclusions than you have.
Fair enough but Israel has been dealing with Hamas for quite a while, and will probably deal with Hamas at this point forward as well. Maybe they will remove the stated goal of genocide.
The Oppressor is whichever side has the upper hand. If the Palestinians had the upper hand, I’d be calling them the oppressors. Hamas has been making threats since before the 48 war? You might learn one day that people can disagree with you without being dishonest. Israel dealt with Hamas in the 60s and 70s as an alternative to Fatah. I think your knee is jerking all over the place, and I think that the stated goal of genocide is not a good thing, but there is talk and there is action, and meanwhile Israel has the upper hand and can afford to talk more moderately, whereas the actions of both sides have been telling me about the same thing.
Erek
This is a complete non-starter both for Israel and Palestine.
The world has observed that in both the Middle East and especially in Sri Lanka, suicide terrorism and desire for extermination of the opposition have yielded desirable concessions. Hamas cannot credibly commit to give up a tool that it and its constituency know is effective. If Hamas tries, it might lose its shirt just as Fatah did.
Israel knows this as well. The very fact that Israel makes this demand is indicative of its lack of commitment to diplomacy. Demanding what one’s bargaining partner cannot credibly commit ends dialogue.
Israel must accept Hamas’ genocidal rhetoric just as Hamas must accept Israel’s overwhelming military superiority and resistance to disarmament.
Hamas has made at best incremental contributions towards exterminating Jews worldwide, and Israel has hardly performed any better in its global quest to rid the world of Palestinians. Considering the depth of historical acrimony between both sides, one must conclude that both sides are remarkably inept at actually killing each other. With that in mind, perhaps we should get over the inflammatory genocidal rhetoric and impossible demands.
No.
You’ve said that you hold Israel to a different standard because they’re militarily stronger than the Palestinians, whose goal is genocide.
As I already cited:
That was ten days ago.
Well you should let me know before you just make up definitions for words. Were the Allies the “oppressors” during the Battle of the Bulge?
The Arab enemies of Israel have. Hamas’ rhetoric is not new. Nor are their supporters.
Ya don’t say? Really?
~yawn~
You keep repeating that Hamas has only turned to genocide because they’ve had their back against a wall, but starting with Azam Pasha the enemies of Israel have been calling for genocide.
You are also, still, unaware of the history of the region. Hamas’ actions were not when they had their back up against any wall. (Although they should certainly be put up against one.)
[
](http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleeast/gaza_timeline.html)
And I think you’re a purple monkey with wings.
Unsupported and absurd allegations are fun, aren’t they?
Want to cite anything, at all, which is ‘knee jerking’ on my part?
Back to the dishonesty thing. And please don’t give me the purile and facile chiding about how people can disagree without being dishonest. As I’ve already pointed out, they have taken actions to achieve their goal.
You might learn one day that you can argue your position without being dishonest.
That’d be laughable if you weren’t serious. Asking for someone to renounce their desire for genocide is a non-starter? How many nations on earth, exactly, have a stated policy of negotiating with terrorists?
Well then the Israelis should certainly give into terrorism. Certainly.
This is absurd. If they commited to peace their economy would be helped and that would be much more effective than the so far totally ineffective policy of terrorism. Your claims about the usefulness of terrorism are gainsaid by the fact that it has only provoked reprisals by Israel, precisely because Israel does not want to be seen as weak or giving in to terrorists.
Lack of commitment to diplomacy? Is the word “Oslo” just four random letters put together?
:dubious:
And yet you think Israel can “credibly commit” to concessions in the face of terrorism? Why isn’t that a non-starter?
These absurd double standards are really getting old.
Again, this is really getting absurd. Your obfuscation is ridiculous. “Rhetoric” does not involve blowing up resteraunts. And Israel shouldn’t disarm as they have been attacked since their founding. This bass ackwards double standard does nothing to solve the problem, only to become an apologist for genocide.
That is a vile, vile lie. Israel has no plan of ridding the world of Palestinians, you should be ashamed of yourself for voicing such a disgusting falsehood. One side actually has a stated goal of genocide, one side does not. Muddying the water with these falsehoods does no good, at all.
Or that you’re simply casting about slanderous and untrue assertions. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians they could’ve done so a hundred times over. The technology existed as far back as Dresden.
Yeah, impossible demands like “we will not negotiate with terrorists”.
It isn’t that asking Hamas to accept Israel’s existance and to renounce violence is that far out, it just isn’t go to happen right now. Those are Hamas’ only bargaining chips when they do enter into real negotiations - the ability to deliver on real security in a lasting way and recognition of Israel with agreed upon borders and agreements. It is reasonable to expect them to deliver security currently, but for them to promise they will do that forever gives them nothing at the table.
Yes, they have been terrorists and murderers. So was Arafat and Israel tried to deal with him. If they can deliver on security then they should be talked to. If they engage in violent actions then reprisals should be harsh … and here I do not mean just militarily but in terms of economic actions by the worlds’ governments.
But to totally isolate them now is foolish. It gives them no incentive to behave responsibly and pushes them into Iran’s arms as the only option potentially open.
I said I hold them to different standards because they are in different situations. I choose not to take the naive route where we can hold both sides to the same standards because the standard for one isn’t applicable to the other.
Are you really asking me this question? Do you not know the difference between keeping people isolated in refugee camps for decades and fighting a battle?
I see, so you are one of those people that can’t tell Arabs apart huh? Charlie Manson was a mass murderer so you must be too, because you’re both Americans right?
So what you are implying is that Azam Pasha and Hamas are the same thing?
There are certainly things I don’t know about it.
It’s a bargaining chip for Hamas who has very few.
When you label all Palestinians as terrorists, then who do you suggest they negotiate with? Or do you not think peace is desirable? You do of course realize that the only alternatives to negotiating with terrorists are either perpetual war or genocide right? How would you achieve peace without negotiating with terrorists hmm? Besides Terrorist is a subjective term, the Israelis have certainly terrorized the Palestinians.
Erek
So, by calling them one of the members of the Axis of Evil the Iranians decided to prove Bush right by doing the one thing that would prove he was correct? I guess that fits with what I know of human nature. Consider myself convinced. I think the same could be said somewhat of what happened in the US in response to European comments during the last Presidential election, IIRC, and what the liberals tried to pull in the Canadian election just past against the conservatives (which probably partly worked). Just goes to show that ‘democracy just doesn’t work’[\homer]
Well if you’ll recall, right after labelling three states “The Axis of Evil” we invaded one.
No two situations are ever the same, but if you have integrity you can say that any civilian targeted violence is wrong.
What on earth are you talking about? The people who have kept the Palestinians in refugee camps are the Arabs, not the Israelis. I know it’s probably too much to ask, but please learn something about the subject you’re talking about before you make such claims in the future.
The Jordanians refused to grant citizenship to any Palestinians living in the West Bank. The Saudis refused to grant citizenship to any Palestnians under orders from the Arab League. Up until 2004 Lebanon had barred them from owning property or working in many jobs.
Again, please learn something before you post more things that are simply out and out false.
[
](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html)
Are you ignorant, or just obfuscatory and dishonest? I’ve said nothing about all the Arabs being the same, and it’s rather pathetic that you need to create a strawman to beat up rather than address my actual point. Sad.
Again, the rhetoric is not new, the supporters of Hamas are the same people who have supported the wars against Israel. These are both facts. Ignore them and obfuscate away at your leisure.
Some facts in case you’re interested in debating honestly.
[
](http://www.jr.co.il/articles/politics/bloodmoney.txt)
[
](http://www.crf-usa.org/terror/islamist_terror.htm)
You’re not real good at ferreting out implications, are you?
Here, let me help, the implication is: “starting with Azam Pasha the enemies of Israel have been calling for genocide.”
I know, rocket science. The implication is exactly what I said in plain black and white text. Amazing.
More facts in case you’re intested in debating honestly, just in case.
[
](http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/hamas_palestinian_islamic_jihad.html#2)
Ya don’t say?
Maybe you want to learn about them before holding forth in a debate?
Absurd. Governments negotiate all the time without the threat of extermination. And most governments do not negotiate with terrorists.
Cite for anywhere at all where I said all Palestinians are terrorists? Can’t do it, can you? Made it up, didn’t you?
You’re not real good at reading before spouting off, are ya?
Hah.
Yes, those are the only options… because you say so.
How about global sanctions until they renounce terrorism? How about substantial economic rewards once they do? Pfft. Take your fallacy of the excluded middle and go out dancing with your strawmen.
Gee, I have no idea.
Again playing fast and loose with the facts.
The IDF does not deliberately target and murder civilians. Various palestinian groups do deliberately target and murder Israeli civilians. But as you said above, you’re pathalogicaly unable to hold an objective standard and declare that such behavior is wrong since the two nations aren’t in exactly the same situation.
Just to fight some more ignorance, especially that evinced by the claim that Palestinian terrorist groups and Arab states are totally seperate and you have to be a racist to think otherwise.
[
As a caveat, I still have lots of family who are descended from ancestors who settled in Rishon Le Ziyyon and still live there. I had to call them and check to see if any of them had been blown to pieces in that attack. Luckily none had been. Just to put my cards on the table.