# Hamas would accept an Israel and a Palestinian state within 1967 borders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839 "2008-04-03T19:44:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/81 "2008-04-08T22:16:24Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Actually, it invokes images of Croatia, Bosnia and Rwanda, . [/QUOTE] Rwanda was a genocide, not an ethnic cleansing. It just wasn’t in the same ballpark as what happened in former Yugoslavia, by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/82 "2008-04-08T22:21:14Z")
Ethnic Cleansing is specifically pushing people out of an area, as opposed to Genocide which is about ending the genetic legacy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/83 "2008-04-09T01:11:14Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Viewed from the outside, nothing. From the inside, I would suppose decades of built-up resenment among an oppressed populace makes it difficult (not impossible) for Pal pols to win with a reconciliation message. [/QUOTE] And of course all the resentment is on the side of the poor, downtrodden Palestinians, ehe? :dubious: You expect Israel to be the one to bend over backwards however and make all the concessions… ETA: [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Because there is no connection between the one and the other. You’re making a “two wrongs make a right” sort of argument. Israel does have a right to exist; Israel does not have any right, save right of conquest, to plant settlements in the WB, now or in 1967. [/QUOTE] I disagree…and I don’t see two wrongs but one. If the Palestinians really want peace then at this stage in the game it’s up to them to rectify literally decades of being rabid dogs and take the steps necessary to show not only Israel but the world that they DESERVE that land back. And those steps include repudiating the PLO and terrorism and recognizing Israel’s right to exist as a sovereign nation. Until and unless they do that…well, to be blunt, fuck em. They can languish as they have been and will continue to do so because of their own stupid mistakes in the past and the environment of hate they have bred into themselves. Fuck em. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/84 "2008-04-09T13:06:57Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] And of course all the resentment is on the side of the poor, downtrodden Palestinians, ehe? :dubious: [/quote] Eh? They are, in fact, the only ones oppressed here. The Israelis are **threatened** but not oppressed. That is the nature of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/85 "2008-04-09T18:06:26Z")
And why can’t the Israelis tolerate a lousy [radio station](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1207486215081&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)?! [(This station.)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAM_FM_%28West_Bank%29) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/86 "2008-04-09T18:14:07Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And why can’t the Israelis tolerate a lousy [radio station](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1207486215081&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)?! [(This station.)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAM_FM_%28West_Bank%29) [/QUOTE] Your article contains the reason: > [@](#): > > “The station was closed because it does not have a license,” a Communications Ministry spokesman said, noting that its broadcasts interfered with air traffic communications. “We closed down their Jerusalem studio, which is in sovereign Israeli territory. Every pirate station that lacks the proper license is closed in this manner,” he added. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/87 "2008-04-09T18:29:14Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] Your article contains the reason: [/QUOTE] The article also says the station disputes the legal grounds. In any case, it’s hard to believe RAM-FM wasn’t targeted for its content. > [@](#): > > The station, which was financed by a Jewish South African, Izzy Kirsch, began life in February 2007. Using English language instead of either Arabic or Hebrew, it aims to bring an objective “peaceful dialogue” and is based on Kirsch’s popular South African radio station, Radio 702, which was believed by Kirsch to help bridging gaps in the aftermath of the apartheid. [1][2] > > The station found it easier to receive a license from the Palestinian National Authority (in December 2005), and promptly airs to Israel from Ramallah. RAM FM currently broadcasts to East & West Jerusalem, Tel Aviv & the coastal areas, the West Bank & Gaza. [1] So what’s the point of closing down the Jerusalem station anyhow? Any signal-interference problem remains, since the Ramallah station remains and its signal reaches the Jerusalem area. They’re just being dicks. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/88 "2008-04-09T18:44:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The article also says the station disputes the legal grounds. In any case, it’s hard to believe RAM-FM wasn’t targeted for its content. So what’s the point of closing down the Jerusalem station anyhow? Any signal-interference problem remains, since the Ramallah station remains and its signal reaches the Jerusalem area. They’re just being dicks. [/QUOTE] The station’s statement was carefully crafted to avoid stating that they did, indeed, have a licence. > [@](#): > > But a statement issued by the station questioned the legal basis for the raid. “On Monday afternoon, Israeli Ministry of Communications officials swooped on… the station. They alleged that the station is operating without the necessary broadcast permits in Jerusalem. The station maintains that it operates within the parameters of the law. The legality of Monday’s detention and seizure of equipment are being examined by the station’s legal team,” the statement said. Seems to me open and shut: either they have a license or they don’t. They do not exactly claim that they do, only that they were operating “… within the parameters of the law” - whatever that means. Your assumptions as to the motives for shutting down a pirate station are just that - assumptions. There is as far as I know no country in the developed world that allows you to run a station sans licence. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/89 "2008-04-10T08:19:17Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] **Sevastopol** [Covenant of Hamas](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm) [Relevant Sections](http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm) Though, if you had bothered to look up the charter yourself you would have found: > [@](#): > > Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. in the second paragraph. [/QUOTE] Ethnic cleansing is what we were talking about Isn’t it we were talking about? Now you’re talking about something else. Why change the subject? Well, obviously you have nothing and made up ‘out of whole cloth’ the claim that Hamas commits to Ethnic Cleansing in its charter. To suggest that even at its worst Hamas could be comparable in foulness to commonplace Israeli supporters. Why the thing’s outrageous. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/90 "2008-04-10T08:21:29Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] … -XT [/QUOTE] I can see why you generally elect not to answer my questions. You’ve good reason to be ashamed of your views. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/91 "2008-04-10T12:15:58Z")
I have something to say to **Sevastopol** : Keep it up. You like to go on about how my country and countrymen are evil and that our country is doomed to be wiped off the face of the Earth. But you see, people – better people than you – have been saying the same thing for years since before I was born. And yet my people still rule this land, and I still live here happily and prosperously. So the way I see it, every day I live here is a day I win and you lose, and every post you make reminds me of that fact and makes me feel better about myself. So keep up with the snark and the insinuations. Really! Every day you go about shooting your mouth off, I still live here, savoring my victory. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/92 "2008-04-10T12:50:13Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] I can see why you generally elect not to answer my questions. You’ve good reason to be ashamed of your views. [/QUOTE] I have zero reasons to be ashamed of my views. Based on past experience with you in similar threads it’s ironic that you would say this to me. But there it is. As to answering your questions…what would be the point? I’ve seen you in these kinds of threads before and you are rabidly anti-Israeli. Some ignorance simply can’t be fought…and in your case it’s pointless to try. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/93 "2008-04-14T13:01:46Z")
And now Jimmy Carter is visiting Israel [and the leaders are snubbing him just because he plans to **meet** with Mashaal.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24092124/) Isn’t that overreacting? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839/94 "2008-04-14T16:21:03Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Ethnic cleansing is what we were talking about Isn’t it we were talking about? Now you’re talking about something else. Why change the subject? Well, obviously you have nothing and made up ‘out of whole cloth’ the claim that Hamas commits to Ethnic Cleansing in its charter. To suggest that even at its worst Hamas could be comparable in foulness to commonplace Israeli supporters. Why the thing’s outrageous. [/QUOTE] Absolutely. Hamas is leagues worse. I would never insinuate such a thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hamas-would-accept-an-israel-and-a-palestinian-state-within-1967-borders/443839.md?page=4)