The Hamas didn’t gain popular support solely because of their stance re. Israel. For instance they acquired a reputation of integrity the PLO was sorely lacking. And they provided assitance or services to the population the PLO was unable to deliver or uninterested in delivering.
This approach does not adequately consider the history of the Levant and the wider middle east. Especially the changes in national development and identity of the 19th & 20th centuries. Nations and national identities have been constantly in flux. One day’s borders are history the next.
Israel is an invention taking place within living memory, a mere 60 years ago. It does not seem unreasonable that it too will pass into history within current lifetimes. Rather, it is ahistorical to speak of any of the middle east nations born out of colonialism, as if they have a story stretching back millenia, or probably extending onward so far.
Irrelevant as long as Israel has the ability to repel Palestinian aggression. The Palestinians don’t have a state, the Israelis do. Israel is willing to accept Palestine if Palestine accepts them. Until the Palestinians accept Israel the status quo will continue. Accommodating for Black Swans is academic.
This position is not consistent with the evidence. Secondly there is the question of what occurs when a regional power gains the ability to repel Israeli aggression. Notably its colonial practices.
The reference to Black Swans eludes me, although I can just about spot a few of the critters from here.
Well as of now, Israel is on top. So the statements of an exile leader of a terrorist organization saying he’s willing to accept benefits for the Palestinians without giving anything in return, doesn’t mean much.
That is too optimistic. Israel won’t leave the status quo alone; viz. the construction of the Wall and recently announced plans to build still more settlements on the WB.
The wall is necessary, the settlements well, I think they are planning for an unreasonable adversary. The Palestinians simply won’t face facts, that they were defeated, and that they are receiving a more benificent and receptive enemy than pretty much any defeated people in history. Muslims have to reconcile the existance of the Jews. The wall is a blessing against a completely unreasonable foe.
I’d buy that about the Wall if it followed the Green Line, but what are you talking about WRT the settlements? They just provide the Palestinians with provocation and targets.
And of course the Palestinians NEED provocative targets in order to lash out…being the peace loving people they are and all…
-XT
IDK about what mswas meant, but the thought that occurs to me is that if the Palestinian leadership every decides to become reasonable and negotiate in good faith then it gives Israel something to barter away in a settlement that it won’t hurt them to lose, which is actually pretty smart, and if you buy it it shows Israel taking a long term view towards the possibility of a peaceful resolution. OTOH if such a situation never materializes, eventually Israel will likely be forced to push the Palestinians back onto Jordan where they belong, in which case they will naturally settle the land left behind. This would give them a headstart there. In a strange way it’s win/win for Israel.
I don’t know why people argue this stuff anymore. It’s been pretty clear to me that Israel is here to stay, has the USA’s support (and weapons), isn’t going to cave to an untrustworthy group like Hamas (or Hezbollah), and that the beat will keep going on, to the tune of ongoing bloodshed in what I believe to be an unresolvable issue.
The Jews will not give up what the Arabs want. And if they do, they will compromise their security.
I’m not saying it’s right, but in my mind, it’s a stalemate that will never end.
Until Armageddon, of course.
I mean they are probably thinking, ‘The Palestinians will never get their head out of their … so we might as well use that land.’
It’s hard to see Hamas as anything but an Islamic KKK with missiles. The gate to Jerusalem would have are the words “Arbeit macht frei” emblazoned on them if they had their way.
The Ethnic Cleansing Solution favoured by 'dave and a portion of the Israeli leadership has few merits acknowleged by decent people. The leading merit is that it shows its advocates to be what they are. Their true colours, if you will.
Naw. See above. Evil for its own sake.
IOW: an abomination.
I usually steer clear of the faith versus atheism arguments and the Palestinian -Israeli situation.
But, I will echo what others have already stated: Hamas is offering nothing, certainly nothing new, to encourage a diplomatic solution. Instead, Hamas is reiterating the uncompromising 2006 National Reconciliation Document. Israel will not divide Jerusalem or destroy forty year settlements for a two state solution. Hamas knows the terms set forth in 2006 will not be acceptable to Israel. It is more of an ultimatum than a serious attempt to establish a peaceful compromise. An autonomous Palestinian state is the only real solution, and both sides need to make concessions, but it must start with sincerity and the will to compromise. The atrocious situation in Gaza doesn’t set the mood for peaceful negotiations.
So you believe Hamas would be dismayed if the latecoming Jewish population of the Levant simply up and left, for other continents?
~sigh~
What I wouldn’t give for OP’s on the ME written by people who know more than that Israel is a country in it. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, the message related by the OP is so much empty propaganda, designed only to sway minds in the global propaganda war.
The proof, of course, is in the pudding. No matter the silly little obfuscatory “Prisoners’ Document” Hamas’ actions put paid to any notions of them having a non-genocidal intention, at any point.
The facts and essential context:
Hamas has a long pattern of indoctrinating children to be murderers and Islamists. Around this time last year, they were using a Mickey Mouse clone to teach children that they should be Islamists. This, amidst the other context of the Al Aqsa station which included ‘moving’ music videos showing young impressionable children just how great it was to pick up a weapon and go try to murder some Israelis. Of course, due to some of their Useful Idiot supporters wondering why ‘the good guys’ were obviously and deliberately trying to make children into killers, Hamas retired their Mickey clone. And then chose a bee whose first appearance included a promise to continue in the mouse clone’s path and teach children “of heroism, of martyrdom and of the mujahedeen. … We will take revenge of the enemies of Allah”. Not to be outdone, of course, Hamas would later retire the bee and use, that’s right, a bunny. A bunny with the friendly message that he would “eat the Jews”. Something tells me he wasn’t talking about cunnilingus, either.
Or as an exchange went with the strange and scary child host, and the giant rabbit:
Notice, by the way, that was less than two months ago.
Of course, Hamas still has not changed its charter which calls for a theocracy and says of Jews:
“Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised.”
““The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).”
"Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. “May the cowards never sleep.” (notice, of course, the clear and explicit delineation between Jews, Israel, and Judaism. Some of Hamas genocidal supporters like to claim that when Hamas talks about Jews, they’re only talking about Israeli Jews. As if committing genocide on Israel was okay.)
And of course, what genocidal Islamist thugs’ ramble would be complete without some good ol’ blind hatred and conspiracy mongering?
"For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it."
Notice, of course, that unlike the sham “change” that never actually happened to the PLO’s charter, Hamas has kept its charter intact, happily.
Of course, it sure would’ve been nice if the OP knew, well, much at all about the situation instead of just posting Hamas’ propaganda releases. (sigh). The fact of the matter, despite Hamas rhetoric, is that rockets and/or mortar shells have continued raining down into Israel, from Gaza, relentlessly. In fact, there some pretty convincing evidence that Hamas has been working on extending the range of their indiscriminate rocket barrages. Hardly the action of those dedicated to peace, eh? Recently, Ashkelon was hit by what seem to be Grad (or Grad style) Iranian built rockets.
Even as of March 21 Hamas’ position was still that “peace” would be based on Israel having absolutely no possible recourse should they be attacked other than sitting there and taking it. In the West, we’d generally call that “submitting to be a victim.” Or perhaps in this context “walking into the gas chambers willingly.”
No, despite the almost painful ignorance of the OP on this subject, Hamas certainly has shown no actual signs of wanting peace, let along dropping their genocidal goals. Of course, just over a month ago, Hamas was still indoctrinating children to be murderers and theocrats, as it was trying to train children to engage in acts of murder and suicide over the dreaded cartoons of blasphemy.
Notice, by the way, towns like Jaffa, Haifa and Acre are all within Israel’s pre-1967 borders. Again, to reemphasize for those not paying attention, in English to its global Useful, er, Supporters, Hamas says that they want peace. In Arabic, Hamas indoctrinates children to murder, Islamism and the destruction of all of Israel, explicitly including pre-1967 Israel into their genocidal ambitions.
Those who’ve been following the conflict for the last few decades should be more than aware of a venerable tradition whereby terrorist factions release certain rosy proclamations in English, and then calls for violence in Arabic. And as we all know, much like the Nazis, dreams of genocide aren’t really genocidal if the butchers would be happy with their targets simply ceasing to exist (there aint enough rolleyes for that kind of apologia for genocide, but I suppose that the way this board tilts, politically, being an apologist for genocidal Jew-haters is okay as long as they’re on the ‘right’ side of a politically trendy position.)
I’ll believe that Hamas is even serious about pretending to want peace when their “eat the Jews!” rabbit starts talking about living at peace with a pre-1967 Israel rather than ethnically cleansing all of Israel. I won’t be holding my breath.
P.S. a micro history lesson: when the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (previously Transjordan) held East Jerusalem, they violated their armistice agreement and prohibited Jews from going to the West Wall and the historic Mount of Olives cemetery. In addition, King Hussein essentially bulldozed numerous of those graves in order to make room for a road whose location could have easily been changed. The Jordanian army also took ancient tombstones from the Mount of Olives and used them to build latrines. Synagogues were used to house barnyard animals (imagine the reaction if Israel used captured mosques for such a purpose).
This contextual information may give a brief glimpse into why Israel might be a bit reluctant to lose east Jerusalem, again, to an entity that has only malicious intentions.
That’s your daily dose of ignorance fought, I suppose.
I’m sure the government was not thinking anything of the kind when it started to plant the settlements back in '67, and the settlers definitely weren’t. They, quite insanely, came to stay.
Now you know that’s never gonna happen. Even the U.S. would have to turn its back on Israel if they tried ethnic cleansing in the OT’s.
How?