# Hand gestures: Is the "V-sign" offensive outside of the UK and Ireland? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 8, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133 "2004-03-08T15:42:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/41 "2004-03-10T19:44:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I thought everyone around the world used the single middle digit for this purpose. _Everyone around the world_? It didn’t occur to you that gestures might be culture-specific? ---
**Author:** ![punkkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7feea3/32.png) [@punkkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/punkkid)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/42 "2004-03-10T19:54:36Z")
Actually, the middle-finger _is_ pretty universal. Throughout Asia, the Americas, Africa, Europe, and Australasia where I have travelled, the gesture seems to be universally shunned. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/43 "2004-03-10T20:06:31Z")
Universally shunned? Or universally employed? ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/44 "2004-03-10T20:07:46Z")
The two-fingers-palm-in gesture is also the American Sign Language sign for “K”, and it is the trademark for Kendall Motor Oil. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/45 "2004-03-10T22:00:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, the middle-finger is pretty universal. Throughout Asia, the Americas, Africa, Europe, and Australasia where I have travelled, the gesture seems to be universally shunned. In a film clip of Saigon prostitutes during the Vietnam War, they showing the middle finger to passing troops. They weren’t saying “fuck you” they were saying “fuck _me_”. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/46 "2004-03-10T22:07:35Z")
Ok, so, what are the actual origins and why is it considered offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/47 "2004-03-10T22:18:48Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > _Everyone around the world_? It didn’t occur to you that gestures might be culture-specific? Hey c’mon. I admitted my ignorance. Doesn’t that count for something? 🙂 Clearly I’m aware that hand gestures vary from culture to culture, but I admit to believing that this _particular_ gesture was pretty much universally used and/or recognized. Perhaps I should qualify the word “universally”. I don’t believe that Jovians use their middle finger or their first two digits. Everyone _knows_ that winking their middle eye while grabbing their proboscis is the preferred "fuck you " insult. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/48 "2004-03-10T22:32:27Z")
This thread has my head buzzing with answer-inspired questions, if that makes any sense. 1. Are American curse words considered as offensive in other English-speaking lands? I’ve always sort of assumed that, for example, “You f_cking piece of sh_t” would pretty much have the same ‘oomph’ everywhere. Yay or nay? 2. Especially with the Buffy reference, as a devilish friend of mine with the entire series on DVD just got me addicted - I’m now totally confused as to what British expressions mean, and how ‘unacceptable’ they are. Is calling someone a bint like calling them a bitch? Bugger isn’t a harmless word? 3. Somewhat of a hijack, but it popped into my mind when someone made a reference to ASL - is ASL more or less universal amongst deaf English-speakers? Or is there Canadian sign language, British sign language, etc? _wanders off towards Calculus-homework land, thoroughly confused_ ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/49 "2004-03-10T22:52:53Z")
1. Yay. There are things like Johnson that don’t make the cross-over (thankfully for me 🙂 ). 2. a. Bugger, to take up the arse (note the spelling 🙂 ), reference to Bulgar. It’s actually quite a friendly swear word and nothing like fuck, shit etc. You can even use it in an endearing way, “He’s a nice old bugger.” b. Bint, from the arabic “daughter of”. Not a swear word, but pretty condescending in my opinion as, to me, it implies that the girl is dippy or in some way less important than a man. But that’s just me. 1. No idea, but one item on [this](http://edf3.gallaudet.edu/diversity/BGG/Sign%20Language%20Around%20the%20World/Index.html) page says that it lists 103 sign languages, so I guess there are different ones. ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/50 "2004-03-10T22:55:07Z")
Slight clarification. 2a should have “someone” after “take”. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/51 "2004-03-10T23:51:09Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > Are American curse words considered as offensive in other English-speaking lands? I’ve always sort of assumed that, for example, “You f_cking piece of sh_t” would pretty much have the same ‘oomph’ everywhere. Yay or nay? Most American phrases have decent recognition throughout the english-speaking world, due to cultural dominance (who speaks english yet _hasn’t_ seen a Hollywood film?) > [@](#): > > Especially with the Buffy reference, as a devilish friend of mine with the entire series on DVD just got me addicted - I’m now totally confused as to what British expressions mean, and how ‘unacceptable’ they are. Is calling someone a bint like calling them a bitch? Bugger isn’t a harmless word? Humour, irony and context are all-important. “Fucking cunt” is a term of endearment with some of my friends, whereas a stranger calling me “wanker” would be a serious insult. “Bugger this” or “Bugger me” are innocuous, but there’s usages where it’s unacceptable. ‘Bint’, btw, is generally used only in humourous contexts. > [@](#): > > Somewhat of a hijack, but it popped into my mind when someone made a reference to ASL - is ASL more or less universal amongst deaf English-speakers? Or is there Canadian sign language, British sign language, etc? Yes, there’s a British Sign Language. Although I know nothing about it 😕 ---
**Author:** ![wobg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90ced4/32.png) [@wobg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wobg)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/52 "2004-03-10T23:51:51Z")
I don’t know why it would be offensive in England–Winston Churchill started using it during the war–everyone thought it meant “Peace”, but in reality you have to remember that he was a great cigar smoker. Hence, in the U.S., when two teenagers pull up next to each other at a stop light and flash the “V” sign, it means, simply, “Hey, you wanna drag?” ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/53 "2004-03-11T00:04:38Z")
Nope. Churchill uses a v-sign for “Victory”, but it was palm-out (which would be a pretty odd way to smoke). The palm in one is the equivalent of the finger. ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/54 "2004-03-11T00:06:25Z")
\*used (why oh why can’t we edit). ---
**Author:** ![Girl\_Next\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@Girl\_Next\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girl_Next_Door)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133/55 "2004-03-11T02:36:02Z")
The first place this Yank ever saw the palm-in “V” sign was on _The Young Ones_. Rik Mayall did it all the time on that show, and I pretty much got its meaning through context. Now my 10-year old son watches the DVDs from that series and runs around making that sign to everyone. We just laugh because it has no meanng here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hand-gestures-is-the-v-sign-offensive-outside-of-the-uk-and-ireland/233133.md?page=2)