# Handgun-owning Dopers, how well would you fare in a duel? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 24, 2018, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599 "2018-12-24T02:41:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/41 "2018-12-26T20:29:29Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > Maybe if I aimed at the second, I’d hit the first. Probably likewise with me - the guy I am shooting at is probably the safest person in the vicinity. But nothing is going to help. Actual combat, even dueling, is different from practice. That was much of the reason for all the Zen meditation and suchlike with samurai. You need to practice dealing with the huge adrenaline dump that occurs when someone is actually trying to kill you. My only hope would be if my opponent was just as scared as I am. Both of us fire, both miss (God help everybody else in the area) and then we immediately leap at the chance to drop the quarrel with honor satisfied on both sides. Then I go home and change my undershorts. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/42 "2018-12-26T21:31:09Z")
Remember the actual goal of duels - it wasn’t to kill the other guy, but to show that you were \*willing \*to kill, or get killed, to uphold your honor. If you did kill him, there’d be murder charges and social ostracization of various sorts to deal with, and nobody would want that. A good practice was to deliberately shoot wide, to show that you were willing to die but that \*his \*life wasn’t worth taking. Even so, a good set of dueling pistols was intentionally inaccurate or unreliable, so that honor could be upheld with a reduced risk of actual death. So are we talking modern 9 mm’s, or antique flintlocks made to be crappy? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/43 "2018-12-26T22:27:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Remember the actual goal of duels - it wasn’t to kill the other guy, but to show that you were \*willing \*to kill, or get killed, to uphold your honor. If you did kill him, there’d be murder charges and social ostracization of various sorts to deal with, and nobody would want that. … > So are we talking modern 9 mm’s, or antique flintlocks made to be crappy? Modern 9mms - but wait…so dueling would be murder if it resulted in death? I thought the whole point of 18th century dueling was that it was a legal, consensual way to kill people. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/44 "2018-12-26T23:42:58Z")
I have a lot of experience with flintlocks and caplocks, so I would have a bit of an advantage with an old-fashioned dueling pistol. I also own both semi-auto and revolver pistols. No matter what the weapon, I have some experience with it. On the other hand, my eyesight keeps getting worse and worse as I age, and, more importantly, I have never shot at anything that could shoot back at me. I’m sure that the stress factor of the possibility of death would be a major factor for me. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So are we talking modern 9 mm’s, or antique flintlocks made to be crappy? Flintlocks, for most of their history, were hand made. It wasn’t until the 1800s that they started to be produced using more modern assembly line types of methods. When you need to hand-build a crap-ton of weapons for an entire army, you make fairly crappy weapons. They were smooth bore, as soldiers didn’t have the time on the battlefield to clean their barrels between shots. They tended to use undersized balls, partly so that they could be loaded quickly even when the barrel was fouled with powder residue (which happened quickly with black powder) and partly due to inconsistent barrel sizes. One easy way to tell an antique from a modern reproduction (aside from the obvious aging) is that the real antique will have marks on it from where things didn’t fit properly and were roughly hammered or filed into working order. Quality and fit were very inconsistent. Dueling pistols weren’t so hastily made. Many of the ones that I have seen have had rifled barrels. After all, if you are only firing one shot, barrel fouling isn’t exactly an issue. Even if it’s a smooth bore, using a tighter fitting ball can dramatically increase the weapon’s accuracy. Again, the reason to use an undersized ball is to deal with barrel fouling, which isn’t an issue in a single shot weapon. Dueling pistols also tended to be well-maintained. A poorly maintained flintlock will often just click when you pull the trigger. If you keep it spotlessly clean and keep the flint properly napped, the weapon will fire almost every time (unless it’s wet - flintlocks in the rain just go click). At dueling distances, I wouldn’t call an antique dueling pistol a “crappy” weapon. They are quite deadly and accurate at those ranges. Smooth bores do pretty much always fire curve balls, but they’ll go straight enough over the distance of a typical duel. > [@Velocity](#): > > Modern 9mms - but wait…so dueling would be murder if it resulted in death? I thought the whole point of 18th century dueling was that it was a legal, consensual way to kill people. Dueling started to fall out of favor in the mid to late 1700s. Many considered fighting to the death to be brutal and uncivilized. There started to be a growing sense that a proper gentleman should be able to resolve his issues without resorting to violence. By the time of the Burr-Hamilton duel, Burr ended up being charged with murder, though the charges were dropped before going to trial. The duel ended Burr’s political career. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/45 "2018-12-27T00:12:43Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > I do a lot of shooting with all kinds of firearms; from IPSC/PPC to flintlocks and front-loading cannons. Love the idea of a duel with front loading cannons! I think there was a “Love, American Style” sketch about this, with Cesar Romero. The challenged party chose the weapon, a Chinese cannon that sounded like “new foils” which is what Romero, an experienced duellist, expected. He backed down when the cannons were wheeled out. If memory serves. There is also a story about a Canadian railway magnate on a European tour being challenged to a duel and choosing double-bitted axes, explaining that as a frontiersman, he had had no opportunity to learn the finer arts, such as fencing. The challenger backed down. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/46 "2018-12-27T00:32:20Z")
At 10 yards I will miss a soda can about 4 or of 5 times getting off a relatively quick shot, a 12" target I will hit about 3 out of 4. I try to avoid duels. If I can slow down and aim I will hit it nearly every time. I would imagine I am about average for the guy who goes out and shoots every couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/47 "2018-12-27T01:27:30Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > There is also a story about a Canadian railway magnate on a European tour being challenged to a duel and choosing double-bitted axes, explaining that as a frontiersman, he had had no opportunity to learn the finer arts, such as fencing. The challenger backed down. That reminds me of Abraham Lincoln’s duel. For those who aren’t familiar with the story, Lincoln and another politician named James Shields disagreed with each other over policies related to taxes and debts, and when Lincoln began mocking Shields using pseudonyms in letters to the local papers, Shields got angry and challenged Lincoln to a duel. Lincoln chose broadswords for the weapons. Despite the silly choice of weapons, Shields did not back down. Before the duel, Lincoln casually reached up with his sword and lopped off branches and leaves from a nearby tree, emphasizing his greater height and much greater reach. Shields, realizing that a sword battle against someone with such a long reach would be suicidal, finally wised up. Both men arranged for their seconds to negotiate an honorable settlement so that neither man would lose face. Lincoln and Shields had to stage their duel on an island in the Mississippi River due to the fact that dueling was illegal in Illinois by that time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/48 "2018-12-27T02:17:04Z")
Indeed, and Shields later was (briefly) a General in the Union Army during the Civil War under President Lincoln. As for duels, my personal favorite description came from Mark Twain, in “The Great French Duel” [The Recent Great French Duel](https://americanliterature.com/author/mark-twain/short-story/the-recent-great-french-duel) As of the OP, I’d be a dead duck, haven’t shot a gun (old or new) in 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/49 "2018-12-27T02:48:10Z")
Great Scene in those Magnificent men & their Flying Machines, a duel, blunderbusses and balloons. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/50 "2018-12-27T05:57:40Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That’s what your opponent brings his second along with him for. To watch you with eagle eyes. My second will be shooting his second at the same time I’m shooting him. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/51 "2018-12-27T15:01:15Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > My second will be shooting his second at the same time I’m shooting him. Friends help you move and good friends help you move bodies. _Great_ friends help you make the bodies the good friends help you move. ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/52 "2018-12-27T19:33:19Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Well, the situation described by the OP would be an “affair of honor,” and you could expect to hit the ground, bullet-ridden, about 1-point-fuck seconds after your opponent, as the judge and your opponent’s second would be honor-bound (if not legally obligated, in some places) to kill you for your cowardice. I’ve never heard of this idea before. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Dancer\_Flight](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dancer_flight/32/7601_2.png) [@Dancer\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancer_Flight)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/53 "2018-12-27T23:53:39Z")
An American version of a Code Duello ([The Code of Honor, by John Lyde Wilson](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/6085/6085-h/6085-h.htm)) published in the Gutenberg Project has this to say: “4. Each second has a loaded pistol, in order to enforce a fair combat according to the rules agreed on; and if a principal fires before the word or time agreed on, he is at liberty to fire at him, and if such second’s principal fall, it is his duty to do so.” You’ll find it in chapter 5. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/54 "2018-12-28T01:37:16Z")
> [@Bert\_Nobbins](#): > > I’ve never heard of this idea before. Cite? Seems like the entire purpose of the second and judge, to prevent foul play. Unless they were just there to serve as witnesses in court later, of someone’s malfeasance (but if dueling were illegal, how could they testify in court without self-incrimination?) ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599/55 "2018-12-28T03:44:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Seems like the entire purpose of the second and judge, to prevent foul play. Unless they were just there to serve as witnesses in court later, of someone’s malfeasance (but if dueling were illegal, how could they testify in court without self-incrimination?) I believe it varied from place to place and over time but ------- what I remember is that the duty of the second was in part to try to prevent further bloodshed once honor had been satisfied (blood drawn) and to provide a buffer between the combatants to help/assist in prevention when possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handgun-owning-dopers-how-well-would-you-fare-in-a-duel/826599.md?page=2)