# Handicapping the Pennsylvania primary, 4/22/08 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056 "2008-03-28T15:42:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sanders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sanders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sanders)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/61 "2008-04-04T17:55:27Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] I don’t know that Bob Casey’s endorsement means all that much./QUOTE] In 2004, Casey won the race for Treasurer by the largest margins in state history. He also won the Senate race by the highest margins of any Pennsylvania Democrat in history. I suspect his endorsement counts for a lot. The reason I registered Democrat was so I could vote for Casey in primary races. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/62 "2008-04-04T18:04:49Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I’m not entirely sure that’s true by the standards of the public-relations profession. Does anybody know? [/QUOTE] Does only the public-relations ethics count? Or does government/political ethics count because it’s a presidential campaign? Is the Colombia thing any better or worse than Charlie Black, CEO of a subsidiary of Penn’s firm Marsen-Bulstetter (of which Penn is the CEO, not some cubicle schlub), having advised McCain throughout the Republican primaries while still working for that subsidiary (he “resigned” from the subsidiary last week to go on the road with McCain)? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/63 "2008-04-04T18:07:04Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] \ Excelleeeent…\ [/QUOTE] Gigantic Headline on The Page: [**Penn Contrite About Talks Colombia Trade Deal Opposed by Clinton**](http://thepage.time.com/2008/04/04/wsj-mark-penn-held-talks-on-colombia-trade-deal-opposed-by-clinton/). ::snerk:: ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/64 "2008-04-04T20:34:07Z")
[Penn Apologizes as Labor Groups Call for His Resignation](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/04/04/penn-apologizes-as-labor-groups-call-for-his-resignation/?mod=WSJBlog) > [@](#): > > . . . > > In a statement first provided to The Wall Street Journal, Teamsters General President Jim Hoffa — whose union has endorsed rival Sen. Barack Obama — said the account calls into question Clinton’s own credibility on the trade pact. > > “How can we trust that a President Hillary Clinton would stand strong against this trade deal when her top adviser is being paid by Colombia to promote it?” Hoffa said. “To support this so-called ‘free trade agreement’ is anathema to the labor movement and to anyone who supports working people, social justice or the environment.” > > . . . > > Penn’s apology is unlikely to resonate in the labor movement, leaders in which have previously expressed their distaste for the apparent conflicts in Penn’s personal business interests and Clinton’s politics. > > Greg Tarpinian, executive director of Change to Win, which has endorsed Obama and represents a coalition of unions actively working against the trade pact, called on Penn to resign his campaign post. > > “It’s time for Senator Hillary Clinton to send her vaunted ‘chief strategist’ Mark Penn packing — back to his job consulting for union busting corporations and anti-labor governments for good,” Tarpinian said in a statement. If there is any justice in the world, this ought to seriously hurt her in Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/65 "2008-04-04T20:43:53Z")
Man, the Clinton campaign is _comically_ messed up. It’s absurd how far they have gone to screw up the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/66 "2008-04-04T20:51:07Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] [Penn Apologizes as Labor Groups Call for His Resignation](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/04/04/penn-apologizes-as-labor-groups-call-for-his-resignation/?mod=WSJBlog) If there is any justice in the world, this ought to seriously hurt her in Pennsylvania. [/QUOTE] It might mean more if the calls were coming from people not already behind Obama. Just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/67 "2008-04-04T20:51:55Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] [Penn Apologizes as Labor Groups Call for His Resignation](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/04/04/penn-apologizes-as-labor-groups-call-for-his-resignation/?mod=WSJBlog) If there is any justice in the world, this ought to seriously hurt her in Pennsylvania. [/QUOTE] Heh…that’s the kind of reaction I could only have hoped for but never really expected. I AM surprised it took this long for Rust Belters to come to the realization that while Clinton was putting on a sympathetic face for their problems, she was keeping a major union-buster on her payroll. Penn’s garbage and should never see the inside of another Democratic campaign. He’s so antithetical to what Democrats traditionally stand for (at least before the DLC got its grubby paws on the party) that I kept expecting him to be actively expelled, the way the smart card rejected the pointy-haired boss’s body in Dilbert… ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/68 "2008-04-04T20:52:52Z")
[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha] Man, the Clinton campaign is _comically_ messed up. It’s absurd how far they have gone to screw up the nomination. [/QUOTE] Yeh, it’s almost like an anti-campaign – start on top with tons of money and support and throw it all away with one boneheaded move after another. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/69 "2008-04-04T20:53:12Z")
[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha] Man, the Clinton campaign is _comically_ messed up. It’s absurd how far they have gone to screw up the nomination. [/QUOTE] “Ready on Day…wait…what day is it again?” ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/70 "2008-04-04T21:02:16Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] It might mean more if the calls were coming from people not already behind Obama. Just sayin’ [/QUOTE] I’m not 100% sure how much that really matters when talking about something like this. This is poison media, it doesn’t matter what or who is really behind it, it’s already in circulation and damaging Clinton’s chances even further. If that’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/71 "2008-04-04T22:33:34Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] It might mean more if the calls were coming from people not already behind Obama. Just sayin’ [/QUOTE] True, but if the media catches hold of this it won’t matter who the calls are coming from. It likely won’t sway any of the hard core supporters, or even the committed. It may move some fence sitters or those who aren’t fully committed yet. Just have to see how this plays. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/72 "2008-04-05T00:32:16Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] It might mean more if the calls were coming from people not already behind Obama. Just sayin’ [/QUOTE] Nonetheless, Hillary needs blue-collar, union-household support. Labor union criticism of Hillary matters on issues closely related to jobs. And if the message starts sinking in that her #1 advisor is a leading union-buster, then PA could get quite interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/73 "2008-04-05T00:38:52Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Nonetheless, Hillary needs blue-collar, union-household support. Labor union criticism of Hillary matters on issues closely related to jobs. And if the message starts sinking in that her #1 advisor is a leading union-buster, then PA could get quite interesting. [/QUOTE] Especially since Hillary’s number one _ **IS** _ a union buster. Uncle Mike the Union worker is not going to want to hear that…He’s going to see the Unions endorsing Barack, and vote for him when he’s in the booth. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/74 "2008-04-05T00:58:07Z")
[QUOTE=Phlosphr] Especially since Hillary’s number one _ **IS** _ a union buster. Uncle Mike the Union worker is not going to want to hear that…He’s going to see the Unions endorsing Barack, and vote for him when he’s in the booth. [/QUOTE] Yup. It’s irrelevant that none of the Hillary-supporting unions have been willing to speak out publicly against this (and make themselves look like morons for supporting her in the first place) – their members _will_ hear about it, and they _will_ be pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/75 "2008-04-05T01:58:35Z")
Well, shit, no wonder Clinton was all hemming and hawing about releasing her tax returns. [They done made a hunnert and nine millions dollars since 2000.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080404/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_taxes) Whatev, it was mostly Bill, anyway, but dayum! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/76 "2008-04-05T17:22:41Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Heh…that’s the kind of reaction I could only have hoped for but never really expected. I AM surprised it took this long for Rust Belters to come to the realization that while Clinton was putting on a sympathetic face for their problems, she was keeping a major union-buster on her payroll. Penn’s garbage and should never see the inside of another Democratic campaign. He’s so antithetical to what Democrats traditionally stand for (at least before the DLC got its grubby paws on the party) that I kept expecting him to be actively expelled, the way the smart card rejected the pointy-haired boss’s body in Dilbert… [/QUOTE] Well, Clinton hasn’t fired him, but [the Colombian Government has](http://thepage.time.com/release-on-mark-penns-termination-by-colombian-government/)! > [@](#): > > The Colombian Government announces its decision to terminate the contract with Burson Marteller. This firm conducts public relations and communications consulting services on behalf of Colombia in the United States for the approval of the Free Trade Agreement and the continuation of Plan Colombia. > > Mr. Mark Penn, President and CEO of Burson Marsteller, reponded to claims by Union representatives who questioned his relationship with the Colombian Government by declaring that it was an “error in judgment” to meet with his client the Colombian Ambassador on March 31. The Colombian government considers this a lack of respect to Colombians, and finds this response unacceptable. > > . . . In the meantime, Hillary just keeps racking up [the lies](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us/politics/05woman.html?ref=politics), this time in an embellished story about a woman who died after a stillbirth in an Ohio hospital. She just _made up her own details_! > [@](#): > > **Ohio Hospital Contests a Story Clinton Tells** > > Over the last five weeks, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York has featured in her campaign stump speeches the story of a health care horror: an uninsured pregnant woman who lost her baby and died herself after being denied care by an Ohio hospital because she could not come up with a $100 fee. > > The woman, Trina Bachtel, did die last August, two weeks after her baby boy was stillborn at O’Bleness Memorial Hospital in Athens, Ohio. But hospital administrators said Friday that Ms. Bachtel was under the care of an obstetrics practice affiliated with the hospital, that she was never refused treatment and that she was, in fact, insured. > > . . . > > A Clinton spokesman, Mo Elleithee, said candidates would frequently retell stories relayed to them, vetting them when possible. “In this case, we did try but were not able to fully vet it,” Mr. Elleithee said. “If the hospital claims it did not happen that way, we respect that.” > > The sheriff’s deputy, Bryan Holman, had played host to Mrs. Clinton in his home before the Ohio primary. Deputy Holman said in a telephone interview that a conversation about health care led him to relate the story of Ms. Bachtel. He never mentioned the name of the hospital that supposedly turned her away because he did not know it, he said. > > Deputy Holman knew Ms. Bachtel’s story only secondhand, having learned it from close relatives of the woman. > > . . . So. Someone who has no details, retells a story 2nd-hand, and the Clinton campaign does enough research to learn the identity of the woman and the name of the hospital, but not enough to learn that the most important details about the story are flat out false. Unbelievable! Continuing. . . > [@](#): > > As Deputy Holman understood it, Ms. Bachtel had died of complications from a stillbirth after being turned away by a local hospital for her failure to pay $100 upfront. > > “I mentioned this story to Senator Clinton, and she apparently took to it and liked it,” Deputy Holman said, “and one of her aides said she’d be using it at some rallies.” > > . . . > > As she tells it, the woman was turned away twice by a local hospital when she was experiencing difficulty with her pregnancy. “The hospital said, ‘Well, you don’t have insurance.’ She said, ‘No, I don’t.’ They said, ‘Well, we can’t see you until you give $100.’ She said, ‘Where am I going to get $100?’ > > “The next time she came back to the hospital, she came in an ambulance,” Mrs. Clinton continued. “She was in distress. The doctors and the nurses worked on her and couldn’t save the baby.” > > . . . :eek: Where did she get all that detail??? She actually _made up conversations that never took place_! This is just unconscionable. I lost a newborn cousin 2 years ago when his mother unexpectedly suffered an amniotic fluid embolism during a scheduled c-section. My cousin spent more than a week in a coma, and wasn’t expected to survive, as [the maternal mortality rate for this condition approaches 80%](http://www.nursingcenter.com/prodev/ce_article.asp?tid=632871). I assure you that the woman in this story’s family is suffering immensely, whatever the cause of her and her child’s death. For Hillary Clinton to _use_ them in a made-up story that she didn’t bother to fully vet is despicable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/77 "2008-04-05T19:30:25Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] Well, Clinton hasn’t fired him, but [the Colombian Government has](http://thepage.time.com/release-on-mark-penns-termination-by-colombian-government/)! [/QUOTE] [shrug] Well, there you are. No harm, no foul. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/78 "2008-04-05T20:31:40Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [shrug] Well, there you are. No harm, no foul. [/QUOTE] Except for the union-busting, of course. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/79 "2008-04-07T16:03:15Z")
Update: Penn has resigned from the Clinton campaign (too). His replacement, Geoff Garin, has a better history WRT labor – [unless you consider his track record on NAFTA.](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?pid=307196) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056/80 "2008-04-07T16:07:40Z")
And Penn is still there…he’s just been kicked to the backroom where we can’t actually see him twitching the strings. He’s still doing that, there are just more pullies involved now… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handicapping-the-pennsylvania-primary-4-22-08/443056.md?page=5)