# "Hands up, Don't shoot!" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048 "2014-12-01T16:57:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/21 "2014-12-01T18:30:43Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Yes, that oldest of American traditions: “When you see the police, be afraid and act like they’ll shoot you with little to no warning or reason.” It may be helpful to understand the police officer’s perspective. From time to time, police officers are assaulted and/or killed during encounters with the public. It should come as no surprise then that an officer may be a bit edgy during an encounter until he’s got some assurance that you do not intend to harm him. Since he’s got firearms, chemical weapons, and blunt objects at his disposal, and some discretion to use them when he feels he’s in danger, doesn’t it make sense to do everything you can do to communicate to the officer that you’re not a threat to his safety? It’s easy. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t do anything that erodes the officer’s confidence in your status as a non-threat: -keep your hands in plain view. If you need to put a hand out of view (e.g. reaching to your back pocket for your wallet), tell him what you want to do and ask permission first. “Wallet’s in my back pocket, you mind if I reach for it?” -Don’t fidget. Keep your hands on the wheel or folded in front of you, and stand in one spot. -Nighttime traffic stop? Turn on the dome light so he can see your hands. If you aren’t doing things like this to make the officer relax, don’t be surprised if he takes you out of your car and puts you in handcuffs until he gets things sorted out. And if you resist that, don’t be surprised if he escalates as well. His training dictates that he control the encounter, not you. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to many of the witnesses, Brown did in fact put his hands up before he was shot. According to the physical evidence provided by the autopsy, Brown’s hands were not up when he was shot. He was also not facing away from Wilson when he was shot. Physical evidence at the scene indicates that after fleeing, he had turned around and was moving back toward Wilson when he was shot. He had done everything he could possibly do to establish himself as an immediate threat to Wilson’s safety, and nothing to indicate desire to end the conflict peacefully. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/22 "2014-12-01T18:40:12Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > According to the physical evidence provided by the autopsy, Brown’s hands were not up when he was shot. Whether this is so or not, it says nothing about whether he had his hands up and was trying to surrender before he was shot, as the witnesses say. It’s very possible his hands were up, he was shot in the body, and then he lowered his hands and received the wounds in his hands/arms from subsequent shots. > [@](#): > > He was also not facing away from Wilson when he was shot. Physical evidence at the scene indicates that after fleeing, he had turned around and was moving back toward Wilson when he was shot. The witnesses mostly support this. Many of the witnesses also say that he had his hands up and was trying to surrender while moving towards Wilson. Perhaps not the wisest way to surrender, if this is true, but that’s what several witnesses say. > [@](#): > > He had done everything he could possibly do to establish himself as an immediate threat to Wilson’s safety, and nothing to indicate desire to end the conflict peacefully. We can’t know for sure that this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/23 "2014-12-01T18:45:50Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > It may be helpful to understand the police officer’s perspective. From time to time, police officers are assaulted and/or killed during encounters with the public. It should come as no surprise then that an officer may be a bit edgy during an encounter until he’s got some assurance that you do not intend to harm him. … > > It’s easy. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t do anything that erodes the officer’s confidence in your status as a non-threat: One problem is that the primative part of your brain may take over when you’re panicked and you may not be able to make intelligent decisions. For example, if a threatening stranger jumps in your face and yells “TELL ME WHAT 2+2 EQUALS RIGHT NOW!!!”, you may not be able to give the answer. Your primitive brain is trying to decide between fight or flight and the rational brain is taken offline. Even normal, law-abiding citizens get flustered when pulled over by the police for a simple traffic stop. They may start sweating, become flustered, be forgetful, have trouble answering simple questions, etc. So it shouldn’t be surprising that citizens act irrationally when confronted by the police. Even if guns aren’t involved, the citizen may be panicked worrying about what he may of done. Since the police have training and will deal with these situations on a regular basis, they should be aware of this and deal with the situation in an appropriate manner. Say you get pulled over by the police and decide to reach into the glovebox for your registration. The policeman may want to you stop. If he calmly says “Please put your hands back on the wheel”, you will likely be able to easily comply. But if he reacts with maximum force by pulling out his gun, putting it in your face and yelling, you may literally not be able to think rationally. The primitive brain takes over and you may try to fight back, try to slap his gun away, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/24 "2014-12-01T18:52:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So the whole game was robbers surrendering or getting shot as soon as the kids playing police show up? Sounds like hours of fun. This was before TV… ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/25 "2014-12-01T18:59:23Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > It may be helpful to understand the police officer’s perspective. I understand the police officer’s perspective. It doesn’t really change my opinion. In a democratic and free society, people shouldn’t be afraid of the police. And shouldn’t have to react to the mere sight of a police officer with fear and submission. Rather, we should consider the police fellow citizens who are performing a necessary and occasionally dangerous public function. There’s a reason we think the term “police state” is bad. We’re not there, but we shouldn’t be encouraging the very attitudes and behaviors that even begin to approximate that condition. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/26 "2014-12-01T19:10:06Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > In a democratic and free society, people shouldn’t be afraid of the police. And shouldn’t have to react to the mere sight of a police officer with fear and submission. I don’t think anyone is advocating fear or submission to the mere sight of a police officer. The discussion is centered more on when that police officer points a gun at you. > [@](#): > > Rather, we should consider the police fellow citizens who are performing a necessary and occasionally dangerous public function. I do. > [@](#): > > There’s a reason we think the term “police state” is bad. We’re not there, but we shouldn’t be encouraging the very attitudes and behaviors that even begin to approximate that condition. Not reaching for a weapon, not advancing on a police officer after being told to freeze, not punching a police officer in the face, not grabbing for the officer’s gun - these are not behaviors that begin to approximate a police state. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/27 "2014-12-01T20:53:43Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > He didn’t, for what it’s worth. He reached towards his waistband and that’s as far as he got before he was shot dead. FTR, they showed the pellet gun that this kid had on the TV news. Damn if it didn’t look _exactly_ like a real handgun. Apparently, there was supposed to be a bright orange piece on the nose that signified it was a toy, but this had been removed. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/28 "2014-12-01T20:56:41Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > FTR, they showed the pellet gun that this kid had on the TV news. Damn if it didn’t look _exactly_ like a real handgun. Apparently, there was supposed to be a bright orange piece on the nose that signified it was a toy, but this had been removed. Plus, even if it hadn’t been removed, if he hadn’t been able to draw it before he was shot, the officers wouldn’t have seen it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/29 "2014-12-01T22:24:59Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Plus, even if it hadn’t been removed, if he hadn’t been able to draw it before he was shot, the officers wouldn’t have seen it anyway. And maybe the officers wouldn’t have even been there, because the person who called 911 would have known with certainty that it was a fake and therefore wouldn’t have seen the need to have the police intervene. (Yes, I’m aware that the caller raised the possibility on the 911 call) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/30 "2014-12-01T22:41:02Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > It may be helpful to understand the police officer’s perspective. From time to time, police officers are assaulted and/or killed during encounters with the public. It should come as no surprise then that an officer may be a bit edgy during an encounter until he’s got some assurance that you do not intend to harm him. Since he’s got firearms, chemical weapons, and blunt objects at his disposal, and some discretion to use them when he feels he’s in danger, doesn’t it make sense to do everything you can do to communicate to the officer that you’re not a threat to his safety? Where do we find assurance that he does not intend to harm us? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/31 "2014-12-01T22:55:28Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > If the 12 year old in Cleveland had done this he’d be alive today. Of course, it’s that simple and obvious. surely even a child can do that… > [@](#): > > Me being naïve thought well I just need to get out my ID to show them I’m a student at the local college. I reached my hand towards my back pocket, and I immediately heard 2 or 3 shotguns get racked with the verbal bark, “GET YOUR HANDS UP!” ah! so the first reaction of a more mature college student was to do something that, but for the flip of a coin, could have got you killed. Simply putting your hands up doesn’t seem so simple now does it? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/32 "2014-12-01T23:06:13Z")
Why do we need yet another thread on this, when there are not only already many other threads on the general issue, but, already, a seven page thread in the Pit with the OP making exactly the same point, with the same people making exactly the same refutations and defenses of it, and with absolutely no meeting of minds apparent? Threads attempting to rationalize and excuse the shooting of unarmed innocent children by incompetent and cowardly government officials certainly belong in the Pit, if they belong anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/33 "2014-12-02T00:03:56Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I reached my hand towards my back pocket, and I immediately heard 2 or 3 shotguns get racked with the verbal bark, “GET YOUR HANDS UP!” There is a small flaw in your narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/34 "2014-12-02T01:08:41Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > It’s easy. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t do anything that erodes the officer’s confidence in your status as a non-threat: Such as, “don’t be black”. That 12 year old didn’t have the time to do anything; it didn’t help keep him from being shot on sight. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/35 "2014-12-02T01:22:05Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I understand the police officer’s perspective. > > It doesn’t really change my opinion. > > In a democratic and free society, people shouldn’t be afraid of the police. And shouldn’t have to react to the mere sight of a police officer with fear and submission. Rather, we should consider the police fellow citizens who are performing a necessary and occasionally dangerous public function. > > There’s a reason we think the term “police state” is bad. We’re not there, but we shouldn’t be encouraging the very attitudes and behaviors that even begin to approximate that condition. Last time I checked, I pay their salary, not the other way around. If I, a law-abiding citizen, am afraid every time I see a uniformed LEO, (and I am very afraid) then it’s their job AS MY EMPLOYEES to change their behavior until I have no reason to continue fearing uniformed LEO. IMHO. Certainly that’s not the only perspective of value… ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/36 "2014-12-02T01:30:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As seems often to be the case, what you think you recall is not what really happened. He had time to reach for the gun in his waistband, which is why he got shot. From the video I’ve seen, I could be convinced that Tamir Rice touched his waistband though even that’s not very clear. Reached into it? That’s vaguely possible, though not definite. He certainly didn’t have time to pull out his toy gun or point it as he was shot almost instantly. I’m generally pro-police, but they really seem to have screwed this one up. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/37 "2014-12-02T03:30:38Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > And maybe the officers wouldn’t have even been there, because the person who called 911 would have known with certainty that it was a fake and therefore wouldn’t have seen the need to have the police intervene. > > (Yes, I’m aware that the caller raised the possibility on the 911 call) Well the first thing I’m going to do now is to paint an orange tip onto a real gun…then I’ll be able to point it at police with impunity - because they know it’s not real. If you think the police should shoot on a perceived threat of reaching for a waistband, then the presence or absence of an orange tip makes no difference to that perceived threat. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/38 "2014-12-02T15:53:42Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Well the first thing I’m going to do now is to paint an orange tip onto a real gun…then I’ll be able to point it at police with impunity - because they know it’s not real. > > If you think the police should shoot on a perceived threat of reaching for a waistband, then the presence or absence of an orange tip makes no difference to that perceived threat. The orange tip might have been a clue to the caller that the gun was a toy, preventing her from calling 911. From what I know of the case, the caller relayed the information to the dispatcher, including the fact that the caller was unsure as to whether the gun was “real” or not. It was the dispatcher who did not relay the information to the police officers who arrived on the scene. All the officers knew was that there was someone brandishing and waving a gun around in the park. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/39 "2014-12-02T16:30:35Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > From the video I’ve seen, I could be convinced that Tamir Rice touched his waistband though even that’s not very clear. Reached into it? That’s vaguely possible, though not definite. He certainly didn’t have time to pull out his toy gun or point it as he was shot almost instantly. I’m generally pro-police, but they really seem to have screwed this one up. If you watch the video, one of the police is seen kicking the gun away, so it got out of his waistband somehow. I assume you don’t mean the police should have waited for him to point the gun at them. _:shrugs:_ The police received a report of someone waving a gun around a playground. When they got there, they saw the suspect who had been reported. When they yelled at him to freeze, he went for what appeared to be a gun. They shot him. ( **Der Trihs’** characterization of what happened is stupid and wrong, possibly involuntarily, but nobody expects better.) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/40 "2014-12-02T17:10:55Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > The orange tip might have been a clue to the caller that the gun was a toy, preventing her from calling 911. A news story some time ago stated that the orange tip had been removed…is that correct? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048.md?page=3)