# "Hands up, Don't shoot!" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 1, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048 "2014-12-01T16:57:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/41 "2014-12-02T17:12:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether this is so or not, it says nothing about whether he had his hands up and was trying to surrender before he was shot, as the witnesses say. It’s very possible his hands were up, he was shot in the body, and then he lowered his hands and received the wounds in his hands/arms from subsequent shots. > > The witnesses mostly support this. Many of the witnesses also say that he had his hands up and was trying to surrender while moving towards Wilson. Perhaps not the wisest way to surrender, if this is true, but that’s what several witnesses say. If I were King I’d give them all immunity and require lie detector tests. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/42 "2014-12-02T17:17:07Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > From the video I’ve seen, I could be convinced that Tamir Rice touched his waistband though even that’s not very clear. Reached into it? That’s vaguely possible, though not definite. He certainly didn’t have time to pull out his toy gun or point it as he was shot almost instantly. I’m generally pro-police, but they really seem to have screwed this one up. How did it get on the ground to get kicked away by the police, then – that kicking action pretty clearly visible on the video? ETA: Hat tip to Shodan. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/43 "2014-12-02T17:17:28Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > A news story some time ago stated that the orange tip had been removed…is that correct? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/44 "2014-12-02T17:25:59Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I’m all for the “Hands up, don’t shoot” motto. If Mike Brown had actually done this, he’d be alive today. If the 12 year old in Cleveland had done this he’d be alive today. > > When I was in my 20’s, I was hanging out with some friends in the parking lot of a closed gas station. It was about 1:00 am. Apparently someone thought we were there trying to break into the station and called us in to 911. All of the sudden, 4 patrol cars rolled up on us with no sirens. Quicker than I can remember, 8 patrolman hop out of their cars, yelling “hands up”. Me being naïve thought well I just need to get out my ID to show them I’m a student at the local college. I reached my hand towards my back pocket, and I immediately heard 2 or 3 shotguns get racked with the verbal bark, “GET YOUR HANDS UP!” I wonder if I had been black, would I still be alive today. But the officers had no idea if I was reaching for a gun or not. Fortunately for me upon hearing the shotguns racked I immediate put both hands up, and we were frisked, and then able to talk our way out of any arrest or citation. > > So for me, “hands up, don’t shoot” sounds like a good policy for everyone involved. The police aren’t looking to murder anyone, they just don’t want to get shot themselves. So, let me make sure I understand what you’re saying: You’re light-skinned, and admit you’ve probably been treated more gently by the cops because of that. But you feel that you should be giving advice on how dark-skinned people should be dealing with cops, to people who are dark-skinned, and have been all their lives, and who have lots of family and friends with experience as darks-skinned people dealing with cops? I mean, we all appreciate you sharing your experience, but, IMHO, maybe there are other people with some more experience and insight on this particular topic? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/45 "2014-12-02T17:30:18Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > So, let me make sure I understand what you’re saying: You’re light-skinned, and admit you’ve probably been treated more gently by the cops because of that. But you feel that you should be giving advice on how dark-skinned people should be dealing with cops, to people who are dark-skinned, and have been all their lives, and who have lots of family and friends with experience as darks-skinned people dealing with cops? > > I mean, we all appreciate you sharing your experience, but, IMHO, maybe there are other people with some more experience and insight on this particular topic? How many people do you know personally that have been killed by the police? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/46 "2014-12-02T18:25:07Z")
The act of reaching for the gun could have been done without ill intentions. It’s possible his first reaction was to show the police that it was just a toy to diffuse the situation. If I was in a similar situation with a toy in my hand and the police thought it was real, I could see having a natural reaction to move my hand out toward the police to show it’s just a toy. I’d be saying something like “No, no it’s just a toy”. Of course, that’s a very dangerous reaction since the police don’t know it’s a toy and it would look like I was going to shoot them. But I may do it out of instinct rather than rationally thinking it’s the appropriate action. Given what we see in the video with the police a few feet away and the kid reaching for the gun, I don’t think the police really had a choice in that moment. If it had been a real gun, they could have easily been shot. The mistake is that they put themselves in a situation where they didn’t have many other options. Given that they are professionals with extensive training in these types of situations, they should have approached the situation differently to avoid this outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/47 "2014-12-02T19:24:09Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > The act of reaching for the gun could have been done without ill intentions. It’s possible his first reaction was to show the police that it was just a toy to diffuse the situation. If I was in a similar situation with a toy in my hand and the police thought it was real, I could see having a natural reaction to move my hand out toward the police to show it’s just a toy. I’d be saying something like “No, no it’s just a toy”. Of course, that’s a very dangerous reaction since the police don’t know it’s a toy and it would look like I was going to shoot them. But I may do it out of instinct rather than rationally thinking it’s the appropriate action. > > Given what we see in the video with the police a few feet away and the kid reaching for the gun, I don’t think the police really had a choice in that moment. If it had been a real gun, they could have easily been shot. The mistake is that they put themselves in a situation where they didn’t have many other options. Given that they are professionals with extensive training in these types of situations, they should have approached the situation differently to avoid this outcome. I agree with these statements. Honestly, I find it hard to fault the cops’ actions once they were in that situation. If I’m within close range of you, and I’ve heard that you were brandishing a weapon in park like that, I fear that my gut reaction would be to open fire if I thought you were reaching for your gun. I do think that they put themselves in the position where such a reaction was foreseeable. I would think that approaching and engaging the person from a greater distance would be a way to lessen the risk of matters escalating. Even parking from a greater distance and using the car as cover while you converse with the individual to determine if there is a threat (and if so, to what severity). Now, if what they did is proper police procedure, I would find it harder to express guilt (for lack of a better word) for their actions. I do fault the dispatcher for not informing the policemen of the possibility that the gun is a toy. With that information, this tragic outcome might have been avoided. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/48 "2014-12-02T20:02:32Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > …Now, if what they did is proper police procedure, I would find it harder to express guilt (for lack of a better word) for their actions. I do fault the dispatcher for not informing the policemen of the possibility that the gun is a toy. With that information, this tragic outcome might have been avoided. (post shortened) The dispatcher received a report of someone threatening people with a gun. In a playground. The caller felt uncomfortable enough with the situation that they chose to notify the police. The caller did not know if the gun was real, or if it was a toy. The dispatcher would not know if the gun was real, or if it was a toy, or if an actual gun even existed. An officer needed to gets eyes on the situation. The dispatcher could tell officers that a future suspect is reported to have a gun but the caller doesn’t believe the suspect will actually use it, but that doesn’t change how an officer should respond to the situation. If there’s a gun, or something that looks enough like a gun to alarm the citizens, then the suspect needs to put that object on the ground and step away from it. No one wants to get shot while trying to decide if a gun is real or not. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/49 "2014-12-02T20:14:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether this is so or not, it says nothing about whether he had his hands up and was trying to surrender before he was shot, as the witnesses say. (post shortened) SOME of the witnesses say Brown had his hands up. Some of the witnesses say Brown did not have his hands up. Some of the witnesses say Brown did not advance towards Wilson. Some of the witnesses say Brown did advance towards Wilson. Forensic evidence suggests that Brown was advancing towards Wilson. That action would have created a threatening situation to Wilson. Brown made a lot of really bad choices that day. Wilson ended a threat to Wilson. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/50 "2014-12-02T20:16:25Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > So for me, “hands up, don’t shoot” sounds like a good policy for everyone involved. The police aren’t looking to murder anyone, they just don’t want to get shot themselves. So, you’re fine with the idea of having to shout “hands up, don’t shoot” as soon as the police is approaching you? And it seems perfectly normal to you that law abiding citizens (I’m assuming you’re a law-abiding citizen) perceive the police as a lethal danger? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/51 "2014-12-02T20:40:21Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Given what we see in the video with the police a few feet away and the kid reaching for the gun, I don’t think the police really had a choice in that moment. If it had been a real gun, they could have easily been shot. They didn’t have a choice? Because when you see a 12 yo old who might have something that looks like a gun on him (note that the police _didn’t know_ whether or not this kid was the person who reportedly had a gun) and moves his hand, your reasonning goes this way : -He might be the guy reported -And if it’s the case, he might be reaching for the thing that looks like a gun -And if it’s the case, it might be actually a gun rather than a toy (12 yo) -And if it’s the case, he might have decided to shoot a cop (12 yo) So, obviously I have no other choice that to shoot to kill the 12 yo immediately because the danger is so great and so obvious. As I wrote in the other thread, i wonder how this officer dared to ride the patrol car given how dangerous riding a car is. The appropriate response should have been “don’t move your hand” in a stern voice. And if he had moved it and pulled up the toy “put this down” in a sterner voice. And if he had instead pointed it at them “don’t be silly, kid, you’re going to hurt someone or hurt yourself” in a sterner voice. That’s the response I expect of a normal adult in such a situation. But apparently many people live in abject terror of all those 12 yo who might have guns who might not be toys that they might use to kill you. That’s besides the utter stupidity of driving the car right up to the frightening 12 yo who can kill them at any instant. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/52 "2014-12-02T20:55:35Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That’s the response I expect of a normal adult in such a situation. But apparently many people live in abject terror of all those 12 yo who might have guns who might not be toys that they might use to kill you. I would imagine that the activity in Ferguson also contributed to policemen being on edge. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/53 "2014-12-02T21:02:24Z")
> [@Calatin](#): > > I would imagine that the activity in Ferguson also contributed to policemen being on edge. I don’t know well American geography : what’s the distance between the two cities? And how many 12 yo have shot police officers in Ferguson? Apart from that, I can understand perfectly well how confronting a lone 12 yo is pretty similar to facing a crowd of rioters. Hmmm…No, fuck that! I can’t understand this at all! They’re fucking LEO! They shouldn’t be terrified by an isolated 12 yo kid because there are riots somewhere in the country. If they’re that nervous, they should fine another line of work, preferably not as primary school teachers in order to stay safely away from any kid with a toy gun, and not listen to the news in case it would cause a nervous breakdown. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Dracula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/54ee81/32.png) [@Count\_Dracula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Dracula)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/54 "2014-12-02T21:10:54Z")
The best way to avoid being shot by a police officer is to (a) not break the law, and (b) do exactly as they instruct you to do. ---
**Author:** ![Calatin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Calatin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calatin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/55 "2014-12-02T21:15:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t know well American geography : what’s the distance between the two cities? And if the public outcry / protests were limited to Ferguson, MO, you might have a point. Hell, in Oklahoma, a former classmate who works as a policeman for a decent-sized city (by Oklahoma standards) reported harassing phone calls and veiled threats to the safety of their officers. I’m not saying “Ferguson, so justified.” I’m just saying that you’d have to think that cops might be a little more on edge, given the other events in the country at the time. Also, do we have any more photos of Tamir? I keep seeing the same one. I understand that he was 12 years old, but how was the officer to have known that? (Ugh. I sound like I’m advocating the shooting when I’m not, but I’m trying to both understand and paint a larger picture of the situation.) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/56 "2014-12-02T21:16:33Z")
> [@Count\_Dracula](#): > > The best way to avoid being shot by a police officer is to (a) not break the law, and (b) do exactly as they instruct you to do. I wish the best way was for Police Officers to assess a situation reasonably before opening fire on a child. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/57 "2014-12-02T21:20:19Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I wish the best way was for Police Officers to assess a situation reasonably before opening fire on a child. Which is extremely rare and unfortunate. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/58 "2014-12-02T21:22:05Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Which is extremely rare and unfortunate. Agreed. I doubt there are 5 cops in the entire country that would have shot this boy under these circumstances. That’s why I can’t understand why anyone is defending this shooting. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/59 "2014-12-02T21:28:21Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Agreed. I doubt there are 5 cops in the entire country that would have shot this boy under these circumstances. That’s why I can’t understand why anyone is defending this shooting. Or boil the whole tragedy down to pithy “hands up, don’t shoot!” bromides. As if it were that simple and obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048/60 "2014-12-02T21:33:22Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > How many people do you know personally that have been killed by the police? None. In fact, I can’t think of anyone I know that has had a gun pointed at them by the police. Which is why _I’m_ not giving patronizing advice to dark-skinned people on what they should do when the police point a gun at them. I mean, the only time I’ve had a negative interaction with a cop was when I was a white college kid in a white college town being obnoxiously lectured by a town cop for walking on the street instead of the sidewalk. While we both knew who had the short-term power there – he could have found some reason for giving me a disorderly conduct ticket or something and we know whose word the judge is going to take – we also both knew that any serious damage to me would lead to a real actual investigation pushed by people with money and education and quite possibly real political connections. So I shut up to get out there with a minimum of hassle, but I really didn’t fear for my life or health. So how the hell does that qualify me to tell a dark skinned person how to deal with a pissed off cop who knows that the DA will always take his side, even if he kills someone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hands-up-dont-shoot/706048.md?page=4)